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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Charlie Wilkes said:
The defense has done this. But the prosecution has never woven the evidence into a narrative that makes the least bit of sense.

For example, the prosecution says Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood is significant. But they don't explain why all of these samples were found in places where Amanda's DNA might naturally be present, while none were found in the room where Meredith was killed.

They say the luminol footprints were made by Amanda and Raffaele tracking Meredith's blood into the corridor. But they don't explain why there are only three of these footprints, why they form no trail or pattern, and why DNA tests came up negative on all of them.

They say the footprint on the bathmat was made by Sollecito, but they don't explain how he made it, or why he left it there for the police to find and examine. Nor do they explain why the big toe of this footprint looks nothing like the big toe of Sollecito's reference footprint but looks very much like the big toe of Guede's reference footprint.

They say Raffaele's DNA on the bra fastener proves he staged the crime to look like a sexual assault, but they don't explain why Guede's DNA was found inside Meredith's body if the sexual assault was staged by Amanda and Raffaele. Nor do they explain why this single DNA trace is the only physical evidence from the murder room that can be linked to Amanda or Raffaele.

They say the knife from Raffaele's kitchen is the murder weapon, but they are forced to add a second murder weapon to explain some of the wounds, and they can't come up with any plausible reason why Amanda or Raffaele would convey this knife to a place that was already equipped with similar utensils.

The prosecution don't need to. It's not they that write the narrative, they merely propose. It's the court that writes the narrative and Massei, as the expert of experts, has done just that. That of course, doesn't mean that we must agree with every aspect of his narrative, but the evince he uses to build it is indisputable.

Charlie Wilkes said:
The defense can address all of this: The bra fastener is a fluke that happened because of poor handling of evidence, which real-world criminal investigators know is possible. The mixed DNA only proves that Amanda lived there. The luminol footprints are unrelated to the crime. The print on the mat was made by Guede when he cleaned up. The knife was never removed from Raffaele's apartment, and the putative match on the blade was an artifact caused by trace contamination in the lab, which again is a well-documented fact of criminal investigations.

Did they not address it in the trial? What went wrong then?

Charlie Wilkes said:
Moreover, the defense can present a plausible scenario that explains all of the evidence. Guede broke in through Filomena's window. He was on the toilet when Meredith arrived home, which is why he didn't flush. He blitzed her and killed her with a small knife in the corner of her room, moved her body, removed most of her clothing, and sexually assaulted her. He cleaned up in the bathroom, and while doing so he removed his right shoe to rinse it off under the bidet, leaving a ring of blood around the drain of the bidet and drops of diluted blood in the basin. While his shoe was off, he put his foot down on the mat and left the print. He put his show on, went back into Meredith's room, spread the quilt over her body, and sat on the edge of the bed with the bloody knife at his side while he went through her purse. He took her money and cell phones, and he exited the room, locking the door behind him and leaving a trail of bloody shoe prints running down the corridor.

I fail to see the plausibility when the evidence contradicts it. Anyone can write a story, many make a living from doing so. But, for it to be accepted in a court room it has to fit the facts and all the facts. No lone wolf scenario does that.
 
Mary H said:
Does anyone know whether it was ever made clear why Dr. Luca Lalli, the original medical examiner, was eventually fired from the case? Looking over many of the early news reports, we see that as early as November 6th, the day Amanda was arrested, theories of the crime had already been worked out and were being announced to the press, but that Dr. Lalli essentially disagreed with them:

Of course it was made clear. he was recorded leaking information about the case to journalists over the phone which in turn was broadcast on Italian national television. That's why he was fired.
 
Mary H said:
Oh, but I don't admit it. My question is how they came to the agreement that Meredith had some kind of sexual encounter with multiple people. For example, what in the information they had at the time led them to believe Raffaele was involved in the crime? They implicated Raffaele before they implicated Amanda OR Patrick.

There was no agreement. Meredith was sexually assaulted and then murdered.
 
Mary H said:
I would imagine it's a pretty hard line of reasoning for Raffaele to follow. The police point out some "inconsistencies" (although none of us knows what they were) that lead Raffaele to say, well, actually, maybe Amanda wasn't home all night after all. Then they use Raffaele's statement to undermine Amanda's confidence in her memory, and get her to say she must have been at the scene of the crime, and, well, yeah, she guesses Patrick was there, too.

Spin away. he never said Amanda 'may' have left him, he said she 'did' leave him...from 9 pm to 1 am. I fail to see the 'may'.


Mary H said:
Fulcanelli claimed there were none of Rudy's footprints to be found in front of Meredith's door, not that the police had photographed them and then cleaned them up.

'After' recording them. Once something is recorded, it can be removed or destroyed. But in any case, they weren't cleaning...that's not the job of the forensics team...they were taking up samples for DNA testing.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Yes, I knew you were going to go back to the information obtained from the interrogation. The information that we know was not reliable due to the methods used to obtain it.

We 'know' this...''how'?
 
LondonJohn said:
I think the overarching point of huge significance in this regard is that people sometimes confess to things that they didn't do.

She didn't confess to something she didn't do. She accused someone 'else' of something they didn't do. Let's get the perspective right.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Both the clean up effort and the scooting scenario would have left behind evidence.

Would it? Are you then confirming Amanda lied her arse off on the stand when she testified she 'scooted' back to her room on the bath mat? Yes or no...did she lie, or tell the truth?
 
If your boss had been arrested for a crime you had nothing to do with, would you tell the police that your boss was innocent even though you haven't got a clue about what your boss was doing that night? She did tell them, in writing, the very next morning, that her statements during that interview were not reliable. What more could she have done?

By the time the trial started, Amanda had already been in jail for over a year and had probably heard the stories of what her former boss had been saying about her. Why should she feel sorry for someone that has their freedom?

Yes. If I was the one that had accused him in the first place.
 
I'm not sure an apology at trial would have been an additional apology. I believe Amanda was asked (during her June 2009 court appearance), "Did you ever say you were sorry to Patrick?" and she replied, "No." Amanda may have told her mother or attorney she was sorry for the predicament Patrick was in and maybe they relayed that information to Patrick (in November).

This is correct.
 
Very interesting that the topic of discussion set for today by the FOA that infest this board is Amanda's interrogation. Since she is in court, imminently, again on June 1 on a further slander charge (already convicted of one) this is all rather predictable and transparent.
 
They scarcely had enough time to set up the chairs, get the translator, go over the information already gathered, finish with the basic interview routine, and finally advise her that RS had turned on her, before AK blurted out that Patrick had murdered Meredith.

It has none of the earmarks of the false/coerced statements:

  • AK is not mentally handicapped.
  • This was either the third or the fourth interview with the suspect.
  • The interviewers were under no particular time restraints; the investigation had started only a few days earlier.
  • AK was unable to identify those who verbally coerced her; she has always stated only that she was confused.
  • There is no evidence she was physically coerced.
  • She did not really confess; she blamed the murder on someone else.
  • AK was rested and well-fed.
There are several other points on this but without further evidence we will have to concur this was not a false or coerced confession.

Again, could you use less of the "we" please. You're stating your opinion, after all.

I want to pick up on something that's been said time and again, by you and others. You use an argument that not enough time had elapsed in the interview for the police to build up pressure on AK. I see phrases like "barely time to set up the chairs" rather glibly used to imply (as i interpret it) something like this: they all sat down, adjusted their chairs, introduced themselves, went over AK's alibi with her, said something anodyne like "So, Amanda, how about you tell us a little more about this text message on your phone?", then AK out of nowhere blurts out "Patrick did it! He's the killer! He's a bad man! I was there! I was covering my ears against the screams!".

Firstly, let's try to clarify what time AK was actually brought back in from the waiting room for interrogation. I believe it was around midnight, but if anyone has a better estimate, please correct me. Let's say 00.30, to err on the side of caution. Unfortunately we will never know for certain exactly what time the interrogation started, as it wasn't recorded and time-coded by the police.

As a slight side-issue, I await a stream of invective along the lines of "The police had no requirement to record the interview - AK was merely a witness at this point". To that I would argue: I believe that's open to serious debate. Firstly, RS had just said he couldn't be sure of where AK was on the night in question, thereby seriously denting her alibi. It seems incredible that the police didn't consider somebody whose alibi had just been holed below the waterline by her own boyfriend as a suspect, rather than simply a witness. And there's no getting away from that crucial fact. Secondly, EVEN IF the police didn't consider AK a suspect as she walked into that interview room, best practice would dictate that they tape the interview as a matter of course - even though in that circumstance they wouldn't have been REQUIRED by law to do so. After all, the recording equipment would obviously have been at hand, and this was a high-profile case with international dimensions. Why would the police NOT want to record ALL interviews where it was practical to do so? The fact that seemingly no tape exists of this interrogation seems troubling to me, from all sorts of different angles.

Anyhow....back to the interrogation. If we assume for the moment that AK entered the interview room at 00.30, she apparently made her verbal "confession" at 01.45 - in other words an hour and 15 minutes later. If you're suggesting that it takes an hour and 15 minutes to arrange chairs, effect introductions, and go through AK's story once more, then I suggest you set a stopwatch for 1hr15 and observe the passage of time. It's a LONG time. And just out of interest, from where do we get the 01.45 timing for AK's "confession"? Is it from the police's records? I genuinely don't know.

So, what was ACTUALLY said and done in that 1hr15 (conservative time estimate)? Well again, we'll never know for certain, because no recording exists. And for those who say that police transcripts exist, I say that the very reason that recordings were introduced was that it wasn't unknown for the police to........enhance........transcripts in certain ways - a practice that's difficult with audio tape, and near impossible with video recording. What a shame that no tape exists of the interrogation.............

Here's a scenario for that 1hr15. It may be completely wrong, but it may just be close in some ways. I'd agree that the first 10 mins or so are taken up with formalities and introductions etc. The next 20 minutes are essentially given to AK to run over her version of events again (20 mins is time enough to cover a LOT of alibi testimony - try it some time).

So, we're now half an hour in. Let's say that the next 20 minutes are spent "cross-examining" AK on the testimony she's just given - clarifying and fixing her version of events. It's during this period that AK's asked for her phone, and asked to clarify the text to Lumumba.

Now we're 50 minutes in. It's now that the police drop the bombshell: RS is no longer supporting her alibi. They also tell her that they think she's lying about the text message, and that they regard it as proof that she planned to meet Lumumba that night. The police leave the room for 5 minutes to let AK stew in that knowledge, to build tension, and to decide on the strategy for the following period of interrogation.

As the police re-enter the room, we are now 20 minutes away from the "confession". Twenty minutes is more than enough time for the "nasty cop / nice cop" routine to work a treat: AK is told aggressively that she's in enormous trouble: the text message and RS's abandonment have sealed her fate. She's going to go to prison for a long, long time. Nothing she can say in her defence will help her now - the evidence will flat contradict it. She met with Lumumba that night, didn't she? She went together with Lumumba to the cottage so that Lumumba could assault Meredith, didn't she? It all got out of hand and Patrick killed Meredith, didn't he? That's what happened, isn't it? She's going to be middle-aged when she comes out of prison. She's not going to see America again until she's in her 40s. She'll never have a family. She's in deep, deep trouble.

But she CAN help herself, in spite of this. She can tell the police now what happened, as fully as possible. If she tells the truth tonight, then probably the judge will be kinder with the sentencing, since helping the police is a big tick in the right box. So she should try to remember everything about that night. She should remember meeting with Lumumba, she should remember going to the cottage, she should remember exactly what happened in the cottage. Because, after all, the police KNOW that she was there. Now maybe she didn't actually wield a knife. It would help her if she can remember that she didn't hold the knife. Perhaps she remembers Lumumba with the knife. Can she remember Meredith's screams as Lumumba plunged the knife into her? Surely she can remember those horrific screams? Or did she cover her ears to block out the screams? She can tell the police everything now. It will be OK. Telling everything now will make her situation better. And she must tell them NOW, because they need to make sure that nobody else can get hurt. And she must tell them now because a failure to do so will count against her in the future.

Now, what I've just written there is pure conjecture - some might say it's fantasy. And yes, to a degree it is. And, as I've already said, it might be massively wide of the mark. But it's written to illustrate two points: firstly, it's possible to cover an awful lot of ground in 1hr15; and secondly, it's entirely possible to employ sophisticated interrogation techniques to elicit all sorts of actions and statements from scared and confused people.

And the fact is this: nobody outside of the police, the interpreter and AK knows for sure what was said and done in that room. The police have their version, which is corroborated by an interpreter who's been engaged by the police and who's a resident of Perugia. And the police say that no tape exists of the interview. The police and the interpreter make more credible witnesses on the stand than Amanda Knox, who contradicts their version of events. Amanda Knox is on trial for murder, after all, and she clearly has a strong motive to dispute the police's account. And the police take a sworn oath to uphold the law. But the police have an agenda too - something that people often overlook.

What a shame there's no tape.....................
 
halides1 said:
One thing that those who tend toward innocence and those who tend toward guilt should agree upon is that once Amanda was arrested, she could only hurt her own legal position by talking to police. That even goes for her discussing Patrick with them. Her lawyers told her to stop talking to police during this period, if my recollection of Ms. Dempsey’s book is correct, and that is just good lawyering 101. Edda made a statement to the effect that Amanda did not think that Patrick was involved during this period.

If she's guilty, it's certainly going to hurt, of course. The innocent never needed to fear...Filomena, Laura, the boys downstairs, the friends of Meredith, Patrick...they were absolved. The system works.
 
Ahh sorry - it truly wasn't intended as an insult of any kind to you. I like your posts. And what I said wasn't meant to imply in any way that you tend to post "obvious" comments/opinions (in fact it probably implied quite the reverse). It was just a joke based on your username and the phrase "No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock" - which is a phrase used in reply to someone who's just said something that's blindingly obvious. I'm genuinely sorry if it was misunderstood. Too much caffeine can make a man see lame jokes where none exist.....

For what it's worth...I laughed at the first post :)
 
Mary H said:
Okay, so that is the crux of the matter. Why did Fulcanelli say there were no footrpint's of Rudy's in front of the bedroom door?

You misquote me. A requirement for those out of their depth.
 
So you agree that when an eyewitness to murder names a suspect that he should be arrested but just more politely.

Gotcha.

Umm no, that's not what I said. I said that Lumumba warranted further investigation. Further down, I said that I believed the correct course of action would have been to go to his house first thing the next morning (8-9am), ask him if he would accompany them to the station for an interview under caution (or the Italian equivalent), and see if he agreed. If he did agree (which he probably would have done, in my opinion), he could have been interviewed as a suspect to enable the police to establish his position further. If he couldn't suggest a decent alibi, or appeared evasive, or other material evidence emerged to implicate him, the police could have moved at that point to arrest him and place him in custody.

Instead, the police arrived en masse at his house at 6am, literally pulled him out of the house in front of his wife and young child, and carted him off as if he was a major international terrorist. I think you'll find that not even murder suspects are usually detained in this way, unless they either clearly pose an ongoing risk to others or themselves, or unless they have a history of violent confrontation.

And "Gotcha"? Do you regard this as some sort of game? What a shame you had to write that...
 
Raffaele in front of Judge Matteini

First Magistrate’s hearing in front of Judge Matteini (8 November 2007)
page 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’
…But now on the key point of the night in question, he was sticking to her like glue again. Backing her up… ‘I can confirm that I spent the night with Amanda Knox.’”


A Murder in Italy, page 198

“Then the judge asked the Italian student what he did remember, prompting a long, dull discussion about the broken pipe under the sink, which he had showed Amanda, discussing with her the probable cause of the leak, a perennial problem in that flat. He also remembered eating dinner with her, watching a movie, working on his computer, getting tired, and going to sleep. Yes of course they slept together. He just couldn’t remember what time they did each action, because he’d been stoned, in a holiday mood, and not punching a time clock.”

I posted the version from Darkness Descending before but not from Murder in Italy. I basically agree with shuttit that Raffaele’s lawyers’ words in front of the Supreme Court (in message #8330 on 26 April) were ambiguous.
 
EYETHANGYEWWW. I'm here all week (or until I get banned, whichever's sooner ;) )

Anyway, glad to introduce some levity - I thought it might reduce the temperature on here by a few degrees.

I don't think it was a "gotcha" like "oooh, I got you good". More of a "gotcha" with an eyeroll like "riiiiiiight...if you say so..."
 
Again, could you use less of the "we" please. You're stating your opinion, after all.

I want to pick up on something that's been said time and again, by you and others.

...snip for brevity...

What a shame there's no tape.....................

I'm not going to point by point debate the scenario as it would be, somewhat, pointless as we don't really know what happened.

We do know that after a max of 1:45 of "intense" interrogation, using such techniques as "Remember! Remember who wrote you this text! Why don't you remember? You said you were going to meet someone later, Who? And why is this the first we've heard of it? You said you were with Raffaele all night. Who did you send this text to? Remember!"

I mean, I know that sounds awfully brutal and all, but I just can't see how that would lead Amanda to make a false accusation.


ETA: Really, there's quite a big difference between the responses:

"I don't remember. It might have been Patrick. He told me I didn't have to work that night, so I was just telling him that I would see him later. I didn't mean 'see you later tonight'".

and

"I don't remember. I don't remember. It's him! It's Patrick! He's a bad man" (*not verbatim, but close enough to what she, herself, in her testimony, stated she said).


The prior would not result in the incarceration of an innocent man for 2 weeks. Nor would it have placed Amanda at the scene, as her continued "dream sequence" does. I see no evidence of a coerced confession/accusation here, rather it appears more like Amanda had run out of options and so she attempted to turn the heat off of her and Raffaele, and toward the easiest (at the time) target, Patrick.
 
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