Split Thread Prahlad Jani - Breatharian

[Ririon]

Randi offers the challenge to the Indian breatharian, May 13, 2010:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/986-james-randi-speaks-powered-by-sunlight-.html

Hardly an exciting change, but at least the challenge is alive and not in total hibernation.

 

[rjh01]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

 

[Ririon]

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

Randi can bend (among other things) rules. If my memory serves me right, he has made exceptions and one-time-only rule changes before. But only in cases where he himself goes out and publicly challenges a specific individual/product/company. People applying on their own initiative can not expect any such special treatment.

 

[chillzero]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

 

[MattC]

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

I presume we're discussing the fellow this article talks about? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...o-have-had-no-food-or-drink-for-70-years.html

I think any serious attempt to discuss the fellow's claims in re MDC is made much more complex by his invocation of a "goddess who pours an 'elixir' down his palate." He does possess some goats, however, which may give him an advantage.

 

[rjh01]

Something is very wrong. See this page http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

2.4 Why do you reject claims that might cause injury?

Because the JREF doesn’t want anyone to get hurt or die, for both legal and humanitarian reasons. The JREF will not condone or support any claim where injury may occur. We don’t even want you to try it at home first.

For example, if you claim you can jump off a ten story building and survive, the JREF is not going to test you at it because people jumping off buildings doesn’t normally end well.

If JREF tests this person then they will be taking a huge risk for the reasons specified.

Though this is one case where they could be justified in throwing the rule book out and say 'Come up with a pass / fail test and we will put the $1m up.' The reason is that the case has attracted world wide publicity. It was even in my local paper the other day. I am sure many others here can say the same.

But did Mr Randi say "The $1m" or "A $1m"? Big difference.

JREF will not test this claim. One or both sides are conducting a huge bluff. I predict there will be no new developments. The case will not appear in any good scientific journal. There will be no serious negotiations between the two parties. James Randi will not be able to generate anything like the publicity that this breatharian has generated.


Edit. MattC is 100% correct above.

 

[Gr8wight]

I believe Mr. Randi is banking on the fact that the Indian gentleman in question will never agree to a test - in fact, he will likely not ever even acknowledge the offer - because he is a fake, and Randi knows he's a fake, and he knows that Randi knows, and Randi knows that he knows that Randi knows that he...

You know.

 

[Akhenaten]

Something is very wrong. See this page http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

2.4 Why do you reject claims that might cause injury?

Because the JREF doesn’t want anyone to get hurt or die, for both legal and humanitarian reasons. The JREF will not condone or support any claim where injury may occur. We don’t even want you to try it at home first.

For example, if you claim you can jump off a ten story building and survive, the JREF is not going to test you at it because people jumping off buildings doesn’t normally end well.

If JREF tests this person then they will be taking a huge risk for the reasons specified.

He's going to throw himself off a building? Where did you read that?

Are you sure you're talking about the right bloke?

Though this is one case where they could be justified in throwing the rule book out and say 'Come up with a pass / fail test and we will put the $1m up.'

Google 'James Randi', rjh, and see if you can figure out his relationship to the JREF and the the MDC and then explain what your non-existant rule book has to do with it all.

The reason is that the case has attracted world wide publicity. It was even in my local paper the other day. I am sure many others here can say the same.

Do you seriously think that making it into your local paper is a criterion for issuing Million Dollar Challenges? You should offer you own prize, perhaps.

But did Mr Randi say "The $1m" or "A $1m"? Big difference.

What the Dickens are you talking about?

JREF will not test this claim. One or both sides are conducting a huge bluff. I predict there will be no new developments. The case will not appear in any good scientific journal. There will be no serious negotiations between the two parties.

Are you a spokesman for the JREF now?

James Randi will not be able to generate anything like the publicity that this breatharian has generated.

WHAT??????????????

<snip>

He does possess some goats, however, which may give him an advantage.

Edit. MattC is 100% correct above.

Please explain.

 

[rjh01]

<snip>

None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.

 

[Ririon]

None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.

Nor are the last few posts directly relevant to the OP. There are plenty of threads for discussing this specific (and not very remarkable) case. I suggest moving (the remainder of) this discussion to one of those threads.

 

[Cuddles]

Something is very wrong.

No, nothing is wrong at all. The JREF has tested breatharians before and will likely do so again. As has already been explained to you, the JREF are allowed to offer the challenge to anyone they like. The rules for applying for the challenge only apply to people who choose to apply, not to people the JREF specifically offers it to.

JREF will not test this claim.

Well obviously there won't actually be a test because this guy isn't going to be stupid enough to undergo a real test with actual controls. However, the JREF are clearly perfectly willing to test this claim.

 

[Akhenaten]

None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.

Then forget about it, as I almost had myself, and respond to this post of chillzero's instead.

 

[rjh01]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

These two posts do not contradict each other. No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong. Just watched the video again. James Randi does say the following (starting at the 3:07 mark)

As always I am willing to be prepared to go to India myself to test this claim. But strangely enough I haven't received an invitation. I wonder why? And Hey, as soon as the man proves his claim, he gets the JREF million dollar prize.

This means that the man would still need to apply. It is not an offer to by pass the application (sorry Cuddles in post 11). There is no offer to even bend the rules in any way. So the discussion on this point is academic.


The man if he wants to apply for the MDC will need to specify this

1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

Everything else depends on the man being able to do this. Without it there can be no test. I mean what was the result of the recent test? Sure he was alive after the test, but did he pass the test? What was the criteria for passing the test?

 

[Akhenaten]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

These two posts do not contradict each other.

Except that your post claims erroneously that the JREF will have to bend the rules and chillzero's post quite rightly points out that Mr Randi isn't bound by the rules.

You might be right in pointing out that the two posts don't contradict each other, but only in that the first, which is wrong, is contradicted by the second, which is correct. The first post merely contradicts reality, rather than chillzero.

No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong. Just watched the video again. James Randi does say the following (starting at the 3:07 mark)

As always I am willing to be prepared to go to India myself to test this claim. But strangely enough I haven't received an invitation. I wonder why? And Hey, as soon as the man proves his claim, he gets the JREF million dollar prize.

This means that the man would still need to apply. It is not an offer to by pass the application (sorry Cuddles in post 11).

It means no such thing, rjh01. You appear to have changed tactics from trying to point out that Randi is wrong to trying to put words in his mouth. It's just as much a losing tactic, and I don't think Cuddles will mind, at least on a personal level. It's kind of embarrassing for everyone, but it would be better to just stop, rather than digging a deeper hole and then shouting apologies from its depths.

There is no offer to even bend the rules in any way. So the discussion on this point is academic.

There is no need for the rules to be bent, and the idea of an offer to do so is meaningless. As has been explained to you, Mr Randi is not bound by the rules.

Discussion on this point is not academic at all, it's flogging a dead horse.

The man if he wants to apply for the MDC will need to specify this

1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

The man does not have to apply for the MDC. No matter how many times you say that he does, it will not become true.

Everything else depends on the man being able to do this. Without it there can be no test. I mean what was the result of the recent test? Sure he was alive after the test, but did he pass the test? What was the criteria for passing the test?

What recent test?

 

[rjh01]

Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m? Unless you can provide a answer that is unambiguous then the whole thread is nothing but an embarrassment to us all. I cannot see such an explicit offer in the video.

It is your case that he does not have to apply, not mine.

'Test', sorry I said the wrong word. Meant 'study'. The one mentioned in the OP.

 

[Akhenaten]

Please see this section, 'Guide to a post', for help on using the quote function.

Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m?

How do you interpret the following, rjh01, which is a transcript of the video commencing at the 3:06 mark?

Folks, get real.

As always I'm willing and prepared to go to India, myself, to test this claim, but strangely enough, I haven't received an invitation.

I wonder why.

And hey, as soon as the man proves his claim he gets the JREF million dollar prize, but search as I may, I cannot seem to find that invitation.

Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.

Unless you can provide a answer that is unambiguous then the whole thread is nothing but an embarrassment to us all.

Oh, puh-lease. Are these histrionics necessary?

I cannot see such an explicit offer in the video.

Pay closer attention.

It is your case that he does not have to apply, not mine.

Whose? The lack of quotes is causing a lot of ambiguity in your post, I'm afraid.

'Test', sorry I said the wrong word. Meant 'study'. The one mentioned in the OP.

One can only respond to what's been posted, not to the poster's intent. I hope you can learn to understand this limitation.

 

[rjh01]

<snip>

Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m?

How do you interpret the following, rjh01, which is a transcript of the video commencing at the 3:06 mark?

Folks, get real.

As always I'm willing and prepared to go to India, myself, to test this claim, but strangely enough, I haven't received an invitation.

I wonder why.

And hey, as soon as the man proves his claim he gets the JREF million dollar prize, but search as I may, I cannot seem to find that invitation.

Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.
<snip>

I agree that Mr Randi meant 'application' when he said 'invitation' as per your last paragraph in your quote. My interpretation of the quote is that Mr Randi cannot find an application from Prahlad Jani, probably because it was never sent. However if Prahlad Jani does apply and can prove the claim in the application then he will win the JREF $1m prize. I see no references to any offers that any rule will be bent or be re-written for this application. Nor do I see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply.

<snip>
There is no need for the rules to be bent, and the idea of an offer to do so is meaningless. As has been explained to you, Mr Randi is not bound by the rules.

Discussion on this point is not academic at all, it's flogging a dead horse.





The man does not have to apply for the MDC. No matter how many times you say that he does, it will not become true.

<snip>

Akhenaten, can you please provide evidence for the last paragraph in the above quote? I have highlighted the part just so that you know what I am talking about. I assume you mean that Prahlad Jani does not have to apply for the MDC in order to win it. You have made a very explicit claim there.


You also say that Mr Randi is not bound by the rules, as per the first paragraph of the quote. That is true, but is it relevant? I see no offer anywhere for any re write of the process. To put it another way there is nothing in the video to say that the normal processes of the challenge will not be followed. We can only go on what Mr Randi has actually said, not what he has not said. Please do not put words in his mouth.


To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.

 

[Uncayimmy]

To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.

LOL! You've got it backwards.

Akhenaten is not saying that he thinks Randi meant application when he said invitation. He meant invitation. Randi was challenging people long before there was any formal application process. Rather than personally invite everybody, he quite sensibly made it an open challenge so that others could challenge people on his behalf. Sensibly, he formalized the process so that people couldn't just show up at his door demanding a test.

Randi gets to personally challenge anybody he wants under any rules he wants, and that includes not requiring a formal application. The "evidence" that no application is required is that Randi never said the guy had to fill out an application. Randi said he'd go to India if the guy accepted and gave none of the caveats about application rules.

You are clearly wrong about this.

 

[Uncayimmy]

No application requirement here.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php...-challenge-from-james-randi-and-the-jref.html

RemieV said
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3089187#post3089187
Fremer does not have an application listed in the Challenge Applicants section because he has not, to my knowledge, officially applied. Negotiations were being executed personally between Fremer and Randi.

 

[Foolmewunz]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

Quote:
IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

This is what the discussion was about, and it's clearly been shown that Randi has personally issued the challenge(invitation, dare, whatever) and must obviously be exercising his right to waive this particular sub-part.

Answered. Thread closed.