Split Thread Prahlad Jani - Breatharian

[rjh01]

This is what the discussion was about, and it's clearly been shown that Randi has personally issued the challenge(invitation, dare, whatever) and must obviously be exercising his right to waive this particular sub-part.

Answered. Thread closed.

Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.

 

[rjh01]

LOL! You've got it backwards.

Akhenaten is not saying that he thinks Randi meant application when he said invitation. He meant invitation.

Let us check what Akhenaten said

Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.

No, that reads like an request to change the word 'invitation' to 'application' in what Randi said. From the context this is reasonable. I can only go on what Akhenaten said. Randi is defiantly needing to receive something before going to India.

Randi was challenging people long before there was any formal application process. Rather than personally invite everybody, he quite sensibly made it an open challenge so that others could challenge people on his behalf. Sensibly, he formalized the process so that people couldn't just show up at his door demanding a test.

Randi gets to personally challenge anybody he wants under any rules he wants, and that includes not requiring a formal application. The "evidence" that no application is required is that Randi never said the guy had to fill out an application. Randi said he'd go to India if the guy accepted and gave none of the caveats about application rules.

You are clearly wrong about this.

I agree Randi also did not say that an application is required. He also did not say that no application is required. As far as I am concerned any change from the normal processes requires an explicit statement. That has not happened. If it has please tell me where.



Randi also did not specify any test with a pass / fail criteria. Until there is such a test there is no specific challenge. Negotiations would be required first (see below).

OK, let us imagine I have misunderstood something, Randi receives an invitation to go to India to supervise the "study", done using the same subject, under the same conditions. No other details are supplied. On the way Randi notices pigs flying. But that is OK. Pigs do fly. Randi watches Prahlad Jani 24 hours a day for 11 days. He notices that no food is consumed. Prahlad Jani does take baths twice a day, including splashing water over the face and mouth. At the end of the 11 days Prahlad Jani has lost some weight and says to Randi "you owe me $US1 million dollars." Should Randi pay? Is there something wrong with this? I say yes. Plenty. But that is what I am interpreting Akhenaten as telling me Randi is issuing a challenge to do.

No application requirement here.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php...-challenge-from-james-randi-and-the-jref.html

I do agree that Randi may not require a formal application. However as your link says he requires that negotiations take place in order to work out the details of the test. Randi has not said any have taken place.

No, nothing is wrong at all. The JREF has tested breatharians before and will likely do so again.<snip>

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

This link discusses a previous similar application from around 1999 that Randi rejected rather bluntly (to put it diplomatically). The link in the OP no longer works. The thread also says why these tests should not happen.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8876

 

[Foolmewunz]

Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.

Other than....???!!! What are you on about? You have Randi's words available... right there... in front of you. View the YouTube or read the words that someone was kind enough to transpose. Why would I want to go to some other source. I have no trouble understand the source that's immediately and readily available.

The world isn't made up of contract language and sub-clauses. The man clearly challenged him. To anyone who speaks English, with any sort of accent, it is a direct challenge. Why are you trying to make it into some sort of legalistic trick. It isn't. Randi doesn't play tricks. Oh, wait..... Randi doesn't mince his words and hide behind "gotcha" clauses. He shoots from the hip and the lip.

And, by inference, he's waiving their usual concern about someone risking his or her life.

Query Randi, not us. Maybe he speaks RJH01ese, because I sure don't.

 

[Akhenaten]

I agree that Mr Randi meant 'application' when he said 'invitation' as per your last paragraph in your quote. My interpretation of the quote is that Mr Randi cannot find an application from Prahlad Jani, probably because it was never sent. However if Prahlad Jani does apply and can prove the claim in the application then he will win the JREF $1m prize. I see no references to any offers that any rule will be bent or be re-written for this application. Nor do I see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply.

What do you mean, 'agree'? I was simply pointing out the error that you insist on continuing to make. We are diametrically opposed, not in agreement.

Unlike yourself, When I hear Mr Randi say 'invitation', I feel safe in assuming that he means 'invitation'. Do you think that video was just thrown together by some old guy with a webcam and a limited vocabulary?

I'm at a loss to know why you are pursuing a line of reasoning which requires you to substitute Mr Randi's words with your own, but as one would expect from such a course of action, you are completely wrong.

That you do not see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply is hardly surprising given that you appear to auto-translating Mr Randi's speech.

When I posted above that "Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'." I was indicating an expectation that you would continue to make the same error. Maybe I should be applying for the MDC myself.

Akhenaten, can you please provide evidence for the last paragraph in the above quote? I have highlighted the part just so that you know what I am talking about. I assume you mean that Prahlad Jani does not have to apply for the MDC in order to win it. You have made a very explicit claim there.

You want me to provide evidence that Mr Randi didn't say what you want him to have said?

I don't think so.

You also say that Mr Randi is not bound by the rules, as per the first paragraph of the quote. That is true, but is it relevant?

I wouldn't say it's relevant so much as I'd say that it's the entire point of this discussion.

Are you claiming that the truth of the matter is irrelevant? I can't help you with that, I'm afraid.

I see no offer anywhere for any re write of the process. To put it another way there is nothing in the video to say that the normal processes of the challenge will not be followed. We can only go on what Mr Randi has actually said, not what he has not said. Please do not put words in his mouth.

You are the one trying to substitute Mr Randi's word 'invitation' with your own word 'application', so I'm obviously unable to satisfy your request.

To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.

Please desist from making baseless personal attacks. They do not advance the discussion at all.

 

[Akhenaten]

Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.

my bolding


It might be time for you to consider the possibility that Foolmewunz and 'others' are completely correct, and that you are the one who is wrong.

 

[Akhenaten]

Let us check what Akhenaten said

I have. You misread it.

 

[Uncayimmy]

No, that reads like an request to change the word 'invitation' to 'application' in what Randi said. From the context this is reasonable. I can only go on what Akhenaten said. Randi is defiantly needing to receive something before going to India.

Akhenaten already explained that my interpretation was correct. He was saying, "Maybe you will want to [continue pretending that the words he stated are not the words he mean]."

I agree Randi also did not say that an application is required. He also did not say that no application is required. As far as I am concerned any change from the normal processes requires an explicit statement. That has not happened. If it has please tell me where.

When the scam artists and attention seekers approach Randi, he tells them to complete an application and has the JREF negotiate on his behalf. He has a history of issuing challenges all by himself. He used to keep a check for $10,000 with him and would issue challenges on the spur of the moment.

Randi also did not specify any test with a pass / fail criteria. Until there is such a test there is no specific challenge. Negotiations would be required first (see below).

Well, duh! Nobody said they wouldn't be.

I do agree that Randi may not require a formal application. However as your link says he requires that negotiations take place in order to work out the details of the test. Randi has not said any have taken place.

Great. We're done. No formal application is required, and he can most certainly test somebody's claim about living on air if he so chooses. You see, rules like the harm rule are partly to protect idiots from themselves. You don't want people saying to themselves, "Hell, for a million bucks I'd try to leap off a building. I might break a leg, but it's worth it!"

 

[Akhenaten]

Other than....???!!! What are you on about? You have Randi's words available... right there... in front of you. View the YouTube or read the words that someone was kind enough to transpose. Why would I want to go to some other source. I have no trouble understand the source that's immediately and readily available.

The world isn't made up of contract language and sub-clauses. The man clearly challenged him. To anyone who speaks English, with any sort of accent, it is a direct challenge. Why are you trying to make it into some sort of legalistic trick. It isn't. Randi doesn't play tricks. Oh, wait..... Randi doesn't mince his words and hide behind "gotcha" clauses. He shoots from the hip and the lip.

And, by inference, he's waiving their usual concern about someone risking his or her life.

Query Randi, not us. Maybe he speaks RJH01ese, because I sure don't.

Quoted for the hard of reading.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say.

 

[Audible Click]

It's quite frustrating to read a thread where everyone has explained the video six ways from Sunday. rjh, your best bet would be to give up trying to parse everything Randi said and write to him. It's getting a bit embarrassing for you.

 

[chillzero]

No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong.

*cough*

Mr Randi did get one thing wrong.

 

[Cuddles]

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/241-big-news-from-the-breatharians.html

Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians uncovered covert runs to local fast food establishments. One applicant asked us to make sure she had access to a private bathroom.

I can't find any direct links to the tests right now, but it's not exactly a secret that Randi has been involved with testing them before.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason you're so vocal about the JREF not testing breatharians now, when you didn't seem to have any problem with it in this thread, which was discussing this article.

Hey, I'll do that test, first making sure that Jasmuheen is totally satisfied about the circumstances, and meeting all her requirements, including location, atmosphere, and ambiance. I'll also get a comprehensive waiver from her that says she won't bring legal action against anyone if something goes wrong, that she's a competent adult, that she will tell us when and if she has any problems, and that she will close off the test at any time she wishes. But I won't allow the test to be terminated unless Jasmuheen herself says she wants it to be stopped!

 

[Randi]

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh. First, on the matter of the current Breatharian, we didn’t receive an application – the FIRST requirement! -- so we didn’t receive a claim, and we’ve no idea what he SPECIFICALLY says he’s able to do. This man is only one of HUNDREDS of others all over the world who make this ridiculous claim. Are we expected to court him, to select him out of all those other liars, as if he were special in some way? Years ago, we tested a few of them. They were caught cheating. End of matter. Why do I have to spend my time arguing these things…? IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance. Got that? Now I’m busy setting up my European tour. Call me when this guy applies.

 

[Akhenaten]

Now that was amazing.

 

[Ririon]

Now that was amazing.

...and it's MY thread. His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum..

 

[rjh01]

Thanks Randi. I appreciate your post to add sanity to this thread.

 

[Akhenaten]

...and it's MY thread. His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum..

You win!

 

[rjh01]

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/241-big-news-from-the-breatharians.html

Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians uncovered covert runs to local fast food establishments. One applicant asked us to make sure she had access to a private bathroom.

I can't find any direct links to the tests right now, but it's not exactly a secret that Randi has been involved with testing them before.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason you're so vocal about the JREF not testing breatharians now, when you didn't seem to have any problem with it in this thread, which was discussing this article.

Hey, I'll do that test, first making sure that Jasmuheen is totally satisfied about the circumstances, and meeting all her requirements, including location, atmosphere, and ambiance. I'll also get a comprehensive waiver from her that says she won't bring legal action against anyone if something goes wrong, that she's a competent adult, that she will tell us when and if she has any problems, and that she will close off the test at any time she wishes. But I won't allow the test to be terminated unless Jasmuheen herself says she wants it to be stopped!

For those interested, that thread is about four years old. I never said that JREF should test the person. There was no need. The idea that such a thing would happen is just too stupid to consider. There was no discussion of JREF doing any testing even in the thread.
Here is one typical post of mine in the thread

Simple. Just put cameras in her kitchen without letting her know. Then you will see here eat three meals a day.

Or get a good looking bloke to chat her up and get a dinner date. Need I say more?

The quote in Cuddles post is from Randi not me. That quote is not my style. The thread does not support your arguments.

 

[rjh01]

Now that was amazing.

I assume all your posts Akhenaten in this thread were all a big joke. Not meant to be taken seriously. Well you had me fooled. Very funny. But you will not get me like this again. I will assume that all your posts from now on in all threads are nothing but jokes.

 

[rjh01]

...and it's MY thread. His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum..

That is simple to get James Randi to post here. Just send James Randi an e-mail from the contacts page. I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result. Mind you it might not work for D. J. Groethe.

 

[Foolmewunz]

That is simple to get James Randi to post here. Just send James Randi an e-mail from the contacts page. I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result. Mind you it might not work for D. J. Groethe.

Oh, so you're the one he was referring to re wasting time he should be devoting to planning his European trip.

He essentially confirmed what we'd been saying. He can damned well test the guy if he wants to, he/we can work out protocols that are safe, etc...

You actually emailed Randi to come address this? There was only one person who seemed to be confused as to what he said in the video.