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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Ghirga works for Amanda in Italy. Ghirga doesn't work for Chris Mellas or David Marriott. He is an Officer of the Court, not a PR mouthpiece.

By corrected we know exactly what you mean. *rolls eyes*


Ghirga is trying to protect Amanda's criminal/legal interests. What are Amanda's "supporters" doing? Shouldn't you all be out there telling Mellas to shut up and let Ghirga and della Vedova get on with it? It looks for all the world that her family in happy to spike her chances for....what, exactly? Why aren't her friends trying to stop the idiot?

Your comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. The family and the attorneys are working together to correct this injustice.

Ghirga was misquoted. We have seen this time and time again during this trial.

Why attack the family? The guilter crowd constantly attacks Amanda' family. None of you have any idea what they are all going through.

Fulcanelli is hell bent on saying that Amanda's family is selling an interview. This is false. He has no idea what he is talking about. He jumps on any and every article that is against Amanda and her family. He has a sick obsession that quite honestly is disgusting.

If you want to argue the facts of the case, go for it. Grow up and leave the family out of your hate filled discussions.
 
Your comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. The family and the attorneys are working together to correct this injustice.

Ghirga was misquoted. We have seen this time and time again during this trial.

Why attack the family? The guilter crowd constantly attacks Amanda' family. None of you have any idea what they are all going through.

Fulcanelli is hell bent on saying that Amanda's family is selling an interview. This is false. He has no idea what he is talking about. He jumps on any and every article that is against Amanda and her family. He has a sick obsession that quite honestly is disgusting.

If you want to argue the facts of the case, go for it. Grow up and leave the family out of your hate filled discussions.


There is only one family worth consideration in this whole sordid mess - the Kerchers. You, Bruce Fisher have no idea what they are going through
 
I have to agree a bit with Bruce. I don't see where attacking Amanda or her family serves any purpose in discussing the case. Same goes for any of the others, i.e. Raffaele, his family, etc., involved in this case. It isn't as if they can respond to the attack or insult.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Ghirga was misquoted. We have seen this time and time again during this trial.

How do you know, just got off the phone with Ghirga have you? If not, perhaps you could provide a link to where he's given a retraction or a denial. Where is it Bruce?

Bruce Fisher said:
Why attack the family? The guilter crowd constantly attacks Amanda' family. None of you have any idea what they are all going through.

Better this then a murdered daughter. But it's not enough their daughter murdered Meredith, they now want to make money off of it by whoring their murdering daughter out to the highest bidder. Puke.

Bruce Fisher said:
Fulcanelli is hell bent on saying that Amanda's family is selling an interview. This is false. He has no idea what he is talking about. He jumps on any and every article that is against Amanda and her family. He has a sick obsession that quite honestly is disgusting.

I didn't say they're selling an interview. I said they're 'trying' to sell an interview. And this isn't down to me, this has been reported by Nick Pisa and confirmed by Mediaset and Knox Lawyer Luciano Ghirga.
 
There is only one family worth consideration in this whole sordid mess - the Kerchers. You, Bruce Fisher have no idea what they are going through

I have made my feelings about the Kercher family very clear. Your comment is the typical default comment made by the guilters.

If you believe as I do that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been wrongly convicted, then you also believe that their families are suffering.

Fighting for two innocent people shows no disrespect for the Kercher family.

Rudy Guede will most likely be out of prison in 5 years. That is truly disrespectful to the Kerchers.
 
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How do you know, just got off the phone with Ghirga have you? If not, perhaps you could provide a link to where he's given a retraction or a denial. Where is it Bruce?



Better this then a murdered daughter. But it's not enough their daughter murdered Meredith, they now want to make money off of it by whoring their murdering daughter out to the highest bidder. Puke.


I didn't say they're selling an interview. I said they're 'trying' to sell an interview. And this isn't down to me, this has been reported by Nick Pisa and confirmed by Mediaset and Knox Lawyer Luciano Ghirga.

You are completely wrong. They were not trying to sell an interview. The family does not accept money for interviews and never has.

This story is incorrect. It was not confirmed by Ghirga.

But of course, you couldn't help yourself, you had to throw in one more insult against the family.


 
I have to agree a bit with Bruce. I don't see where attacking Amanda or her family serves any purpose in discussing the case. Same goes for any of the others, i.e. Raffaele, his family, etc., involved in this case. It isn't as if they can respond to the attack or insult.

I think that the family of Amanda should grow a thicker skin (their supporters too). The family of Amanda has made it a point to involve themselves in a very public way in this case. The same cannot be said for Raffaele's family, the Kerchers and Rudy's family.

Besides, what's been discussed here these last few pages hardly qualifies as an attack. Sure, there is some harsh criticism of their activities and how those activities impact the case. But what has been discussed still related to the case. It wasn't like someone started discussing how they kick their dog or starve their cat just to put them in bad light.
 
I think that the family of Amanda should grow a thicker skin (their supporters too). The family of Amanda has made it a point to involve themselves in a very public way in this case. The same cannot be said for Raffaele's family, the Kerchers and Rudy's family.

Besides, what's been discussed here these last few pages hardly qualifies as an attack. Sure, there is some harsh criticism of their activities and how those activities impact the case. But what has been discussed still related to the case. It wasn't like someone started discussing how they kick their dog or starve their cat just to put them in bad light.

Very true in many ways. I'd point out though that there's a significant difference between being harshly critical of their activities (a position, incidentally, with which I'd broadly agree), and using inflammatory language such as "whoring out their daughter" to invoke an emotional reaction.

I'd add that the phrase I just quoted is only one example, and that posters on both "sides" (although I HATE to start talking about sides) seem to have engaged in similar tactics on here.

Another point of yours that I'd like to reinforce is that it's perfectly valid in my view to question, or even attack, the actions of the Knox/Mellas family as they pertain directly to this case. But it's always worth bearing in mind that they had no choice in being involved in this case to some extent. Of course it can be argued that their involvement should be much more low-key - not only for the sake of general dignity, but also because (ironically for them) they may very well be damaging their own daughter further through their actions.
 
The indignity Bruce feels can only be understood by one who believes in Amanda's innocence and the outrage Fulcanelli feels can only be understood by one who believes in her guilt. Every single piece of evidence, strong as it may appear to many, has been disputed and appears weak to others. Short of a confession from Amanda that she did it or from the Italian judiciary that it was all made up just to save face and railroad her, these two sides will never meet in the middle. It's impossible.
As Amazer pointed out, the Knox/Mellas group chose to put themselves front and centre in the public eye and gave many, many media interviews. Chris Mellas even joined message boards to argue with commenters. I do believe they are truly suffering, although in a very different way to the Kerchers, but because they put so much out there it is free to comment on. If they're arranging an interview who cares. Its not going to change anything unless like I said, Amanda suddenly confesses.
 
The indignity Bruce feels can only be understood by one who believes in Amanda's innocence and the outrage Fulcanelli feels can only be understood by one who believes in her guilt. Every single piece of evidence, strong as it may appear to many, has been disputed and appears weak to others. Short of a confession from Amanda that she did it or from the Italian judiciary that it was all made up just to save face and railroad her, these two sides will never meet in the middle. It's impossible.
As Amazer pointed out, the Knox/Mellas group chose to put themselves front and centre in the public eye and gave many, many media interviews. Chris Mellas even joined message boards to argue with commenters. I do believe they are truly suffering, although in a very different way to the Kerchers, but because they put so much out there it is free to comment on. If they're arranging an interview who cares. Its not going to change anything unless like I said, Amanda suddenly confesses.
Hi Danceme,
That was a very well written post.
Gosh, I can see another 300 pages of back and forth debate happening here. But I can't see Amanda Knox confessing though, if she wasn't involved in the murder of Miss Kercher. She is sticking to her guns, much as she is with her up-coming slander trial.
RWVBWL
 
Thanks RWVBWL. I can see another 300 pages too. Every now and again though, something comes up I've never seen before and it keeps it very interesting. I'm fascinated by the case but I have never been able to be completely convinced of total innocence or guilt and I've read just about everything I possibly could, including PMF, Perugia Shock, the older Haloscans, Injustice in Perugia, TJMK, as well as doing my own research into DNA, bleach and luminol, cellphone pings, and so on and so on and so on. I see merit in various arguments from either side and I've been swayed on small points but overall I have no horse in this race.

Edited to add: it's not quite true I have no horse in the race. I do mostly lean toward guilty but have listened and tried to see the merit in arguments from Bruce and Charlie. They simply have so much evidence in their possession that it only makes sense to try to glean something from it. Bruce made very good points with regard to the broken window and the glass dispersal and I spent a lot of time looking at his photos. Charlie also offered a while back to make some stuff he has available and although we haven't seen it yet, I really would like to.
I can't subscribe to the face saving and railroading theory though, its utterly too ludicrous for me.
 
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Thanks RWVBWL. I can see another 300 pages too. Every now and again though, something comes up I've never seen before and it keeps it very interesting. I'm fascinated by the case but I have never been able to be completely convinced of total innocence or guilt and I've read just about everything I possibly could, including PMF, Perugia Shock, the older Haloscans, Injustice in Perugia, TJMK, as well as doing my own research into DNA, bleach and luminol, cellphone pings, and so on and so on and so on. I see merit in various arguments from either side and I've been swayed on small points but overall I have no horse in this race.

Edited to add: it's not quite true I have no horse in the race. I do mostly lean toward guilty but have listened and tried to see the merit in arguments from Bruce and Charlie. They simply have so much evidence in their possession that it only makes sense to try to glean something from it. Bruce made very good points with regard to the broken window and the glass dispersal and I spent a lot of time looking at his photos. Charlie also offered a while back to make some stuff he has available and although we haven't seen it yet, I really would like to.
I can't subscribe to the face saving and railroading theory though, its utterly too ludicrous for me.

"lean toward guilty" - is that a way of saying you have not been convinced of guilt beyond reasonable doubt and based on what you know now would have voted to acquit?
 
The indignity Bruce feels can only be understood by one who believes in Amanda's innocence and the outrage Fulcanelli feels can only be understood by one who believes in her guilt. Every single piece of evidence, strong as it may appear to many, has been disputed and appears weak to others. Short of a confession from Amanda that she did it or from the Italian judiciary that it was all made up just to save face and railroad her, these two sides will never meet in the middle. It's impossible.
As Amazer pointed out, the Knox/Mellas group chose to put themselves front and centre in the public eye and gave many, many media interviews. Chris Mellas even joined message boards to argue with commenters. I do believe they are truly suffering, although in a very different way to the Kerchers, but because they put so much out there it is free to comment on. If they're arranging an interview who cares. Its not going to change anything unless like I said, Amanda suddenly confesses.

This is a nice post Danceme.
 
Thanks RWVBWL. I can see another 300 pages too. Every now and again though, something comes up I've never seen before and it keeps it very interesting. I'm fascinated by the case but I have never been able to be completely convinced of total innocence or guilt and I've read just about everything I possibly could, including PMF, Perugia Shock, the older Haloscans, Injustice in Perugia, TJMK, as well as doing my own research into DNA, bleach and luminol, cellphone pings, and so on and so on and so on. I see merit in various arguments from either side and I've been swayed on small points but overall I have no horse in this race.

Edited to add: it's not quite true I have no horse in the race. I do mostly lean toward guilty but have listened and tried to see the merit in arguments from Bruce and Charlie. They simply have so much evidence in their possession that it only makes sense to try to glean something from it. Bruce made very good points with regard to the broken window and the glass dispersal and I spent a lot of time looking at his photos. Charlie also offered a while back to make some stuff he has available and although we haven't seen it yet, I really would like to.
I can't subscribe to the face saving and railroading theory though, its utterly too ludicrous for me.

So what evidence do you agree with?

What evidence do you disagree with?
 
Well Juror, I was a jury member once and I know its very safe to say all 12 of us took our jobs very seriously, took to heart the judges instructions and we did not let any prejudices sway our deliberations in any way. I believe that's true for most juries.

That being said, I can say that if all I had at my disposal to base my decision on is the material that has been made public and therefore available to me then yes, I would acquit.

However, there are thousands of pages of testimony and evidence I will never get to see and thousands of articles I will never get to read because I don't speak Italian and/or because they were not made public. I didn't get to hear the testimony the jurors did, or see the faces and body language of those testifying, I didn't see the gruesome pictures to understand the wounds and how they may have been inflicted, or the charts and graphs and explanations. All this makes a vast difference in whom a juror believes and what makes sense. The Italian jury and judges who convicted Amanda and Rafaelle did get this opportunity and therefore I believe it was compelling and convincing. They voted unanimously to convict. That in itself makes me believe in the evidence presented.
 
"lean toward guilty" - is that a way of saying you have not been convinced of guilt beyond reasonable doubt and based on what you know now would have voted to acquit?

Note that "beyond reasonable doubt" is the American standard and doesn't apply to an Italian trial.

Wikipedia seems to say that "intimo convincimento" is the standard that applies in Italian law. (There's a section a couple of paragraphs above that uses the phrase "beyond any reasonable doubt," but that appears more likely to be the author(s)' interpretation in English)
 
In the context of the whole "guilters vs innocenti" separation, I would make this point: I don't actually think that it's at all unreasonable to come at this case (if one is a so-called neutral and disinterested bystander) from a starting position of assuming the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt of AK, RS and RG. This is a logical position based on their conviction in a criminal court, especially if one is asked to make an "either/or" choice.

However, it's also a logically indeterminate position to claim that SINCE a person was convicted of a crime, they SHOULD have been convicted of this crime. Granted, in the majority of cases this position in fact does hold strong - since most convictions are indeed sound. But one can't use a QED argument to automatically link the two.

If all people who were convicted in a criminal court, based on the weight of evidence presented in court (and the way in which that evidence was presented) were automatically presumed to have a sound conviction, then there would be no point in an appeals system (that goes without saying of course). And even for cases that go through numerous appeals, it still doesn't automatically mean that the convictions are inviolably safe and just.

The situation is further clouded by the very real issue of reactionary behaviour within the judiciary (and that applies to pretty much any country). By this I mean that appellate courts are instinctively inclined to "side" with rulings made by their lower court colleagues - since to overrule them clearly implies a failing at some level withing the justice system as a whole (even though, paradoxically, correct appeals rulings are obviously a key facet of a well-functioning system). The failures of appellate courts to overturn or refer lower court verdicts despite clear indications to the contrary have been well-documented over many years, resulting in many wrongly-convicted people spending far more additional time in prison than they ought to have done.

Another related point that I've made before, but which bears repeating, is that a conviction can be unsafe NOT ONLY if the person is actually innocent of the crime, BUT ALSO if the person actually did commit the crime, but in the absence of sufficient evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. This latter (and often misunderstood) category has probably led to the greater number of miscarriages of justice. This is often because it's not uncommon for the suspect to "fit the bill"; for (s)he to have no alibi; for a certain amount of (sometimes conflicting and often weak) identification evidence to exist; for a certain (often small) amount of forensic evidence to be presented linking the suspect to the crime; and for there to be no other credible potential suspects on the horizon. In these sorts of circumstances, juries can often be persuaded to convict based on their "gut feelings" - feelings which are actually often correct, but which in law are not an acceptable reason to convict in the absence of sufficient hard evidence.

The famous US District Attorney (ie state prosecutor) Vince Bugliosi likens circumstantial evidence (ie all evidence except confessions in trial or eyewitnesses to the crime being committed) as the strands of a metaphorical rope which connects the suspect to a jury. At the start of the trial, there is no rope at all. Then, as the trial proceeds, the prosecution adds strands to the rope, in the form of pieces of evidence. Each strand can be either relatively thick (e.g. victim's blood all over the suspect's clothes, when the suspect claims no contact with the victim), or thinner (eg questionable identification of the suspect a mile away from the crime scene). The defence try to discredit each strand, and the jury ultimately decide which of the strands remain and which are removed. At the verdict, the jury tug on this metaphorical rope. If the rope is thick and strong, it will hold firm and the suspect can be judged guilty. However if there are only a few thinner strands on the rope (or perhaps only one thicker strand), the rope will break, signifying reasonable doubt. It's up to the trial judge to advise the jury what the breaking point of this metaphorical rope should be - in other words to guide the jury in the area of "reasonable doubt".

So, if we extend the analogy, an case that goes to appeal starts with the thickness of rope that convicted the person. At this point, one of two things can happen. The first (and less likely) thing is that the appeal court decides that the breaking point of the rope was incorrectly set (ie that the lower court judge misdirected the jury). The appeal court can rule that had the correct breaking point been set, the rope would in fact have snapped.

The second, and more common thing that can happen in appeal is that the composition of the rope can change. Some strands may be removed (ie pieces of evidence may be successfully challenged or refuted with counter-evidence), and of course some might even be added. After the composition of the rope is changed, the appeal judges pull the rope again themselves, to see whether it now breaks. If not, then the conviction is still safe. But if it does break, time for an acquittal or a retrial.

Here endeth my bedtime story for today. I hope you're all sound asleep by now :D

EDIT: I realise that references to the word "jury" are strictly incorrect when applied in Italian criminal cases. However, the principles are still exactly the same (although I suspect the trial judge would not really need to issue much instruction to the judicial panel).
 
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Well Bob, just to state a few things as I'm on my way out, I believe in the DNA evidence and am not convinced by the contamination or planting of evidence arguments. I believe in multiple attackers based mainly on the lack of any skin cells under her fingernails and the sheer number and location of wounds. I believe Meredith's body was moved and the scene disturbed by someone later (based mainly on the medical examiner's report of the lividity in her shoulder and the bra strap mark in dried blood on the floor). I believe there is evidence of clean up, especially after seeing the pictures of the door to Meredith's room posted by Charlie. (I believe the door was closed when Meredith was attacked. There was blood on the inside handle as someone opened it to leave, there was blood on the side of the door as they pulled it to by its edge, however there was no blood on the outside handle this person would undoubtedly have had to grab onto to pull the door tight and insert the key) I am not convinced anyone could have climbed through Filomena's room without leaving DNA, fingerprints, etc. and can't believe this window would have been chosen anyway when there was a perfectly good balcony to climb onto.
I can write more later if you wish as I have to go out for a bit now. It would probably be a good exercise.
 
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