Nonbelievers and Buddhism

[Dancing David]

Well, again... a general reply...the 3,4, or 5 element theory is not outmoded, dispproven, or outdated. It is pan-asian. All mystical experience and systems from all over asia train according to it, and explain accurately according to it. If you ignore the phenomenology that is psychological and physical, then you are ignoring their method of obtaining mind/body unity within themselves, and between themselves and nature. This is the heart of Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism/Confucianism. If one is not interested in understanding what you don't understand in such an important area, then what?

Also one of you claimed or several of you claimed that my simple meditation experience was impossible. Were you being scientific?

you weren't.

Does some light go through wall and your eyelids?

What kind of wall, no light does not go through your average 'wall', unless it is translucent.
What kind of wall?
What kind of light?
Now if you mean long wave EM radiation of the sort called 'radio waves' maybe, but that is not light, it is photons but not at the frequencies labeleld as light.

Of course it does. Is is possible that your eye is sensitive to it? Yes.

To 'visible light' , yes. To EM raiation that travels through opaque walls, no.

Can your brain reorganize light and present it to you as a picture.

not really.
You have photo receptors, they generate nerve impulses, they travel to the brain where they are made into further nerve impulses.

Of course it can. Did my experience happen. Yes. Can anyone do it. Yes. Is it paranormal? No.

Sorry, there are ways to test for valid predictions based upon any theory, such as the elements. You set them up for the standards of the scientific method and then we can talk about it, otherwise you have nothing.

Let me make this clear, you may have an experience but that does not make it valid, there is no way that you heard cosmic particles zipping past you.

Now did you have an experience, yes. Was it cosmic partciles no.

Do you know much about buddhism? Not from what I can tell. But different schools vary.

 

[NordaVinci]

Confession of a Buddhist Atheist (Hardcover)
~ Stephen Batchelor (Author)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/mar/10/buddhism-atheism-hitchens

Evangelizing again...am I...hehehe

 

[NordaVinci]

you weren't.

What kind of wall, no light does not go through your average 'wall', unless it is translucent.
What kind of wall?
What kind of light?
Now if you mean long wave EM radiation of the sort called 'radio waves' maybe, but that is not light, it is photons but not at the frequencies labeleld as light.

To 'visible light' , yes. To EM raiation that travels through opaque walls, no.

not really.
You have photo receptors, they generate nerve impulses, they travel to the brain where they are made into further nerve impulses.


Sorry, there are ways to test for valid predictions based upon any theory, such as the elements. You set them up for the standards of the scientific method and then we can talk about it, otherwise you have nothing.

Let me make this clear, you may have an experience but that does not make it valid, there is no way that you heard cosmic particles zipping past you.

Now did you have an experience, yes. Was it cosmic partciles no.

Do you know much about buddhism? Not from what I can tell. But different schools vary.

NordaVinci replies:

I don't know if we're welcome here anymore to talk about this? But this is closely related to perception in dream states of consciousness.e.g.I was napping on the couch the other day. Dreamed that my cat was approaching the front door telepathing that he wanted to come in. I got up, opened the door and there was my cat approaching just as in my dream.

Another experience of a more cosmic sort: I said to my college roommates after a game of cards, "I'm going to pull an ace out of the deck." proceeded to do it. (No I never practiced card tricks, and I had no idea where an ace might be.) Then everyone said, "Do it again!" which I proceeded to do. Then everyone said again, "Do it again!" This is the truth. I had absolutely no idea where the third ace might be, no intuition, nothing, and proceeded to pull the third ace out of the deck....Then of course it got more serious. I had to go for the fourth ace. Everyone watched very seriously. And I moved my hand up and down, not having the faintest idea. The fourth card...an ace.

No wheres near as difficult as winning the lottery. My point is that through meditation with a pure heart, one experiences the one mind. Does that make me a Buddhist who knows very much about Buddhism?

 

[Complexity]

Confession of a Buddhist Atheist (Hardcover)
~ Stephen Batchelor (Author)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/mar/10/buddhism-atheism-hitchens

Evangelizing again...am I...hehehe

Not very well.

Instead of attracting positive attention to your religion, you are quite repulsive.

 

[MikeSun5]

Well, again... a general reply...the 3,4, or 5 element theory is not outmoded, dispproven, or outdated. It is pan-asian. All mystical experience and systems from all over asia train according to it, and explain accurately according to it.

Proof? Links?

Can you prove any statments you've made? Here's the thing about "real" skeptics: if we are shown evidence proving our skepticism was unwarranted, we will change our views. Skeptics are not "anti-everything," we are just in desperate need of proof before we accept something at fact.

I believe you have NO proof for the vast majority of your claims other than personal (anecdotal) stories, and heavy speculation. Feel free to prove me wrong. I will gladly eat my words. Of course, I really truly think I won't have to.

I think the thread has been derailed a bit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Understatement of the Year Award goes to the_bunkologist. Congratulations!

 

[CKava]

The book to read, if you haven't, is The Worlds Religions by Houston Smith. He writes that what Buddha preached was devoid of authority, ritual, speculation, theology, tradition, grace, and the supernatural. That it was empirical, scientific, pragmatic, therapeutic, psychological, egalitarian, and individual. Buddha is described as utterly rejecting and rebelling against the woo saturated Hindu culture he was raised in.

Much or all of the above, it seems to me, will come as news to the majority of self described Buddhists these days. The ones I've met, anyway.

But as already discussed in the thread, that view of 'original' Buddhism is inaccurate according to the best evidence we have. If you look at the early Buddhist scriptures you can find lots of good advice that fits with modern skepticism and science but that is not the same thing as that advice being 'real' Buddhism. Real Buddhism was a sramana movement in ancient India. Expecting it to be entirely consistent with modern secular ideals is a bit unrealistic.

And NordaVinci, I really think you are doing a bang up job of illustrating the amount of woo that Mr. Moon's followers are into. I also doubt most modern Buddhists would have any interest in being associated with the Moonies so maybe your particular interpretation of what Buddhism is about isn't very relevant.

 

[dafydd]

NordaVinci replies:

I don't know if we're welcome here anymore to talk about this? But this is closely related to perception in dream states of consciousness.e.g.I was napping on the couch the other day. Dreamed that my cat was approaching the front door telepathing that he wanted to come in. I got up, opened the door and there was my cat approaching just as in my dream.

Another experience of a more cosmic sort: I said to my college roommates after a game of cards, "I'm going to pull an ace out of the deck." proceeded to do it. (No I never practiced card tricks, and I had no idea where an ace might be.) Then everyone said, "Do it again!" which I proceeded to do. Then everyone said again, "Do it again!" This is the truth. I had absolutely no idea where the third ace might be, no intuition, nothing, and proceeded to pull the third ace out of the deck....Then of course it got more serious. I had to go for the fourth ace. Everyone watched very seriously. And I moved my hand up and down, not having the faintest idea. The fourth card...an ace.

No wheres near as difficult as winning the lottery. My point is that through meditation with a pure heart, one experiences the one mind. Does that make me a Buddhist who knows very much about Buddhism?

What a lovely story.

 

[the_bunkologist]

But as already discussed in the thread, that view of 'original' Buddhism is inaccurate according to the best evidence we have. If you look at the early Buddhist scriptures you can find lots of good advice that fits with modern skepticism and science but that is not the same thing as that advice being 'real' Buddhism. Real Buddhism was a sramana movement in ancient India. Expecting it to be entirely consistent with modern secular ideals is a bit unrealistic.

The degree to which ancient buddhism would be acceptable through modern skeptic eyes is an interesting debate to have. But for those of us who reject the authority of 'great men', and need to see evidence in the here and now, it's somewhat academic.

Even if the historical buddha was an atheistic materialist, what is that to me? I'd still need to see evidence that the techniques available to me now can make a meaningful impact on my life.

Even if the historical buddha was as religious as the rest of them, what is that to me? I wasn't going to take on 2,500 year old religious ideas anyway.

If, on the balance of evidence available I decide that participating in buddhist practices, or identifying with buddhist philosophy is good for me, it will not be because of anything some long dead guy was or was not, said or did not say.

(that being said, I like an academic debate as much as anyone!)

 

[Complexity]

I don't care very much what people used to believe or believe now regarding Buddhism.

All of the words attributed to the Buddha, all of the commentary, all of the works of and about Buddhism were written by men (and possibly some women). They were written by people - ordinary people, not inspired by sky-daddies, not having mystical insights, not special people. Simply people.

There may be some things of interest and, possibly, of value, in the writings and practices that the various branches of Buddhism. The same may be said for any human tradition, including vampyre studies and stamp collecting.

The history of these traditions can be interesting but they have nothing to offer regarding the usefulness of ideas, writings, or practices.

Validation in this area is not a relevant concept, since determining what the Buddha actually said and did does nothing to charge the words and actions with meaning or power, for the Buddha was an ordinary man and incapable of imparting significance.

Browse around if you like and see if any of it resonates with you, or intrigues you, or offers a scratch to your itch.

Pick out the cool or pretty stuff, try it on, and keep it for as long as you like.

Pick and choose, cafeteria style.

None of it matters, not even in the short run, and it certainly isn't worth harming anyone over or starting any wars.

All that said, I do find some things worth thinking about in the words attributed to the Buddha. I find a great many things worth thinking about.

ETA: The same, of course, applies to all of the religious and philosophic traditions, including xianity and the Baha'i Faith, Plato and Aristotle, Kant and Rand, and many academic disciplines.

 

[Dancing David]

NordaVinci replies:

I don't know if we're welcome here anymore to talk about this? But this is closely related to perception in dream states of consciousness.e.g.I was napping on the couch the other day. Dreamed that my cat was approaching the front door telepathing that he wanted to come in. I got up, opened the door and there was my cat approaching just as in my dream.

Another experience of a more cosmic sort: I said to my college roommates after a game of cards, "I'm going to pull an ace out of the deck." proceeded to do it. (No I never practiced card tricks, and I had no idea where an ace might be.) Then everyone said, "Do it again!" which I proceeded to do. Then everyone said again, "Do it again!" This is the truth. I had absolutely no idea where the third ace might be, no intuition, nothing, and proceeded to pull the third ace out of the deck....Then of course it got more serious. I had to go for the fourth ace. Everyone watched very seriously. And I moved my hand up and down, not having the faintest idea. The fourth card...an ace.

No wheres near as difficult as winning the lottery. My point is that through meditation with a pure heart, one experiences the one mind. Does that make me a Buddhist who knows very much about Buddhism?

I shall now disregard what you post, I made specific questions to your post and you respond with something unrelated. You do no engage in discussion but are just rambling to yourself. Should you choose to respond to my post in a coherent a relevant way I will regard it.

L8TR

 

[CKava]

The degree to which ancient buddhism would be acceptable through modern skeptic eyes is an interesting debate to have. But for those of us who reject the authority of 'great men', and need to see evidence in the here and now, it's somewhat academic.

Even if the historical buddha was an atheistic materialist, what is that to me? I'd still need to see evidence that the techniques available to me now can make a meaningful impact on my life.

Even if the historical buddha was as religious as the rest of them, what is that to me? I wasn't going to take on 2,500 year old religious ideas anyway.

If, on the balance of evidence available I decide that participating in buddhist practices, or identifying with buddhist philosophy is good for me, it will not be because of anything some long dead guy was or was not, said or did not say.

(that being said, I like an academic debate as much as anyone!)

That sounds like a very sensible position .

It just appears very common for people to posit that 'original' Buddhism was whatever-they-happen-to-value in modern Buddhism. That's unlikely to be the case and you don't need it to be true to take value from some Buddhist teachings.

 

[MikeSun5]

I made specific questions to your post and you respond with something unrelated.

You just NOW caught on to that pattern? I read NordaVinci's flickr pages. It was exactly the same type of New Age, anecdotal, non-scientific, mystical rambling. Expect nothing more.

NordaVinci has successfully demolished this thread.

 

[Complexity]

You just NOW caught on to that pattern? I read NordaVinci's flickr pages. It was exactly the same type of New Age, anecdotal, non-scientific, mystical rambling. Expect nothing more.

NordaVinci has successfully demolished this thread.

Well, don't give him that power. Take back the thread.

Post what you want and ignore him. If others do the same, you can get the thread back on track.

Even if they continue to let him interfer, you can get a lot out of this thread - simply stop responding to him.

I, for one, will be happy to utterly ignore the cretin.

 

[NordaVinci]

First thing some of you have to realize is how to be civil to other human beings. Second thing is how to have pure heart. Then you won't be misconstuing and misjudging all the time. I'm not here to de-rail threads or to evangelize, or to intimidate.

Dancing David, the reason I didn't repond specifically is due to the fact that it looks like most participants don't want to pursue any scientific analysis of experiences here. But I would really like to pursue that perhaps on another thread. You're exactly the kind of scientific advocate who can make advances in this field.

 

[dafydd]

First thing some of you have to realize is how to be civil to other human beings. Second thing is how to have pure heart. Then you won't be misconstuing and misjudging all the time. I'm not here to de-rail threads or to evangelize, or to intimidate.

Dancing David, the reason I didn't repond specifically is due to the fact that it looks like most participants don't want to pursue any scientific analysis of experiences here. But I would really like to pursue that perhaps on another thread. You're exactly the kind of scientific advocate who can make advances in this field.

We tried our best to scientifically analyse your charming anecdotes,for example it was explained to you why you cannot hear subatomic particles whizzing by.You mentioned karma and I asked you for proof of it's existence and got no reply.Instead you tell us stories and inform us that some people somewhere have accepted Rev Moon as some sort of Buddha and tell us about an ancient four or five element theory born out of ignorance,I asked you how these four ''elements'' combined to form plutonium but answer came there none.You are the one who is avoiding a real discussion.

 

[Dancing David]

You just NOW caught on to that pattern? I read NordaVinci's flickr pages. It was exactly the same type of New Age, anecdotal, non-scientific, mystical rambling. Expect nothing more.

NordaVinci has successfully demolished this thread.

I try to give people a chance, I have had some great moments with some intactable posters like BAC and Michael Mozina, limited but true discussions.
NV seems to fall into the other category.

 

[Dancing David]

First thing some of you have to realize is how to be civil to other human beings. Second thing is how to have pure heart. Then you won't be misconstuing and misjudging all the time. I'm not here to de-rail threads or to evangelize, or to intimidate.

Dancing David, the reason I didn't repond specifically is due to the fact that it looks like most participants don't want to pursue any scientific analysis of experiences here. But I would really like to pursue that perhaps on another thread. You're exactly the kind of scientific advocate who can make advances in this field.

When you learn what science is, and that can be right here, right now. So what type of light can you see through walls, it is asimple question.

(Here is a hint it is not light, it may be your perception. Therefore it is an experience for you but it may have little to zero validity to the world outside your brain.)

Perceptions are real to the person who has them, that does not mean they are valid events in the greater scheme of things. That is why the scientific method exists.

 

[Dancing David]

So, I believe that parts of buddhism are compatible with nonbelief, they are very similar to cognitive behavioral therapy.

 

[NordaVinci]

We tried our best to scientifically analyse your charming anecdotes,for example it was explained to you why you cannot hear subatomic particles whizzing by.You mentioned karma and I asked you for proof of it's existence and got no reply.Instead you tell us stories and inform us that some people somewhere have accepted Rev Moon as some sort of Buddha and tell us about an ancient four or five element theory born out of ignorance,I asked you how these four ''elements'' combined to form plutonium but answer came there none.You are the one who is avoiding a real discussion.

Daffdd,

I can't respond to everybody, everyday. From past list experiences, "we" can know that this leads to too many posts from one person. So just to respond to the karma point that you have mentioned....Can any of us say that there is no "law" of cause and effect....and that I therefore can do anything I want to..because it so happens that I caused myself?

 

[Dancing David]

Karma exists soley as choices and consequences, there is no transmission of souls, there is no reincarnation, there is no transmission of teh sins of the parents.

So yes, the choices we make have consequences, however this

Your daughter was destined to die to pay indemnity for the past sins in your lineages.

Sounds and looks like rubbish.