Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[joobz]

It's not safe to infer (for example) God approving of David being an adulterer and wrongly killing someone. In fact it is safe to infer the opposite. Just like it is not safe to infer God approved of Peter denying Christ 3 times.

But it is safe to assume that God condones the beating of slaves.

 

[joobz]

Personally I'd rather get a some lashes and be sore a few days than spend several years in jail like could happen today if a person beat several men and beat several woman like the servant did in Luke 12 47.

What country do you live in?
In the USA, we don't send people to jail for not doing what their boss wanted. Especially when the boss doesn't specify what he wanted?

Also, in the USA, if a Boss was to whip an employee, HE would be sent to jail. But then, this is the kind of morality one can expect from a secular government.

 

[Helen]

Because we're done voting for Trouble and this thread seems to have the potential to last for eternity?

Suffering from PTSD (PostTroubleStressDisorder) can make you do strange and self-destructive things, or so I've heard, so you may very well be right

 

[kmortis]

Personally I'd rather get a some lashes and be sore a few days than spend several years in jail like could happen today if a person beat several men and beat several woman like the servant did in Luke 12 47.

Wait...what? So, it's ok to beat someone if it's instead of them going to jail?

So, here are all the versions of Luke 12:42-48 that are available on BlueLetterBible.com. Compiled for your reading "pleasure". I included the non-English in case someone here can translate them.

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?

Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] master will make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of food in due season?

Blessed [is] that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.
But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint [him] his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare [himself] or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

And the Lord replied, "I'm talking to any faithful, sensible servant to whom the master gives the responsibility of managing his household and feeding his family.

If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.
I assure you, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns.
But if the servant thinks, `My master won't be back for a while,' and begins oppressing the other servants, partying, and getting drunk-- well, the master will return unannounced and unexpected. He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the unfaithful.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.
"But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.

The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?

It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.
I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?

"Blessed is that servant [fn] whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
"Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
"But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, "the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
"And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
"But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his [fn] servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?

"Blessed is that slave whom his [fn] master finds so doing when he comes.
"Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master [fn] will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of [fn] a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?

Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Of a truth I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath.
But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful.
And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes];
but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.

And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give the measure of corn in season?

Blessed is that bondman whom his lord [on] coming shall find doing thus;
verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he has.
But if that bondman should say in his heart, My lord delays to come, and begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and to drink and to be drunken, the lord of that bondman shall come in a day when he does not expect it, and in an hour he knows not of, and shall cut him in two and appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
But that bondman who knew his own lord's will, and had not prepared [himself] nor done his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes];
but he who knew [it] not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few. And to every one to whom much has been given, much shall be required from him; and to whom [men] have committed much, they will ask from him the more.

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of provisions in due season?

Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
In truth I say to you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the men-servants, and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken?
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant who knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he that knew not, and committed things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, from him they will ask the more.

The Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the right times?

Blessed is that servant whom his lord will find doing so when he comes.
Truly I tell you, that he will set him over all that he has.
But if that servant says in his heart, 'My lord delays his coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken, then the lord of that servant will come in a day when he isn't expecting him, and in an hour that he doesn't know, and will cut him in two, and place his portion with the unfaithful.
That servant, who knew his lord's will, and didn't prepare, nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes,
but he who didn't know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. To whoever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked.

Ok, that's it for the Englis translations on Blue Letter. Now for the foreign languages, starting with Spanish (I think, or it could be Portugese, I don't read either so...)

Y dijo el Señor: ¿Quién es el mayordomo fiel y prudente al cual su señor pondrá sobre su casa, para que a tiempo les dé su ración?
Bienaventurado aquel siervo al cual, cuando su señor venga, le halle haciendo así.
En verdad os digo que le pondrá sobre todos sus bienes.
Mas si aquel siervo dijere en su corazón: Mi señor tarda en venir; y comenzare a golpear a los criados y a las criadas, y a comer y beber y embriagarse, vendrá el señor de aquel siervo en día que éste no espera, y a la hora que no sabe, y le castigará duramente, y le pondrá con los infieles.
Aquel siervo que conociendo la voluntad de su señor, no se preparó, ni hizo conforme a su voluntad, recibirá muchos azotes.
Mas el que sin conocerla hizo cosas dignas de azotes, será azotado poco; porque a todo aquel a quien se haya dado mucho, mucho se le demandará; y al que mucho se le haya confiado, más se le pedirá.

Latin

dixit autem Dominus quis putas est fidelis dispensator et prudens quem constituet dominus super familiam suam ut det illis in tempore tritici mensuram
beatus ille servus quem cum venerit dominus invenerit ita facientem
vere dico vobis quia supra omnia quae possidet constituet illum
quod si dixerit servus ille in corde suo moram facit dominus meus venire et coeperit percutere pueros et ancillas et edere et bibere et inebriari
veniet dominus servi illius in die qua non sperat et hora qua nescit et dividet eum partemque eius cum infidelibus ponet
ille autem servus qui cognovit voluntatem domini sui et non praeparavit et non fecit secundum voluntatem eius vapulabit multas
qui autem non cognovit et fecit digna plagis vapulabit paucis omni autem cui multum datum est multum quaeretur ab eo et cui commendaverunt multum plus petent ab eo

servus -a -um adj. [serving , servile, subject]; legal, of lands, etc., [subject to other rights]; m. and f. as subst. [a slave, servant].
Greek

εἶπεν δὲ ὁ κύριος Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς οἰκονόμος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν καταστήσει ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς θεραπείας αὐτοῦ τοῦ διδόναι ἐν καιρῷ τὸ σιτομέτριον
μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει ποιοῦντα οὕτως
ἀληθῶς λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν
ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει ὁ κύριός μου ἔρχεσθαι καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς παῖδας καὶ τὰς παιδίσκας ἐσθίειν τε καὶ πίνειν καὶ μεθύσκεσθαι
ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀπίστων θήσει
ἐκεῖνος δὲ ὁ δοῦλος ὁ γνοὺς τὸ θέλημα τοῦ κυρίου ἑαυτοῦ, καὶ μὴ ἑτοιμάσας μηδὲ ποιήσας πρὸς τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ δαρήσεται πολλάς

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς οἰκονόμος ὁ φρόνιμος ὃν καταστήσει ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς θεραπείας αὐτοῦ τοῦ διδόναι ἐν καιρῷ τὸ σιτομέτριον
μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει ποιοῦντα οὕτως
ἀληθῶς λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν
ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ χρονίζει ὁ κύριός μου ἔρχεσθαι καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς παῖδας καὶ τὰς παιδίσκας ἐσθίειν τε καὶ πίνειν καὶ μεθύσκεσθαι
ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀπίστων θήσει
ἐκεῖνος δὲ ὁ δοῦλος ὁ γνοὺς τὸ θέλημα τοῦ κυρίου αὐτοῦ καὶ μὴ ἑτοιμάσας ἢ ποιήσας πρὸς τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ δαρήσεται πολλάς
ὁ δὲ μὴ γνούς ποιήσας δὲ ἄξια πληγῶν δαρήσεται ὀλίγας παντὶ δὲ ᾧ ἐδόθη πολύ πολὺ ζητηθήσεται παρ’ αὐτοῦ καὶ ᾧ παρέθεντο πολύ περισσότερον αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν

 

[Belz...]

Personally I'd rather get a some lashes and be sore a few days than spend several years in jail like could happen today if a person beat several men and beat several woman like the servant did in Luke 12 47.

That so doesn't answer the question, DOC. Why do you keep dodging this question ?

 

[zooterkin]

Then someone forgot to tell the 9 major translations that used the word servant.

I really don't understand how you can make such a statement, haven't you read the 9 translations. Go to Gateway or Blue Letter Bible and look at each and every translation for the verse in question Luke 12 47. The great majority use servant not slave.

So, the 'great majority' are wrong. If there is a word of known meaning that is being consistently translated as something else, that doesn't make those translations correct.

Look.

Noun

δοῦλος (genitive δούλου) m, second declension; (doulos)

1. slave (specifically, one who is born a slave)

 

[carlitos]

@kmortis - The Spanish one you pasted is quite formal. It uses "mayordomo" which would be steward or butler. And the greek obviously uses doulous, which means slave. But I could see how translations of translations of translations over 2000 years would be much more relevant vs. the original word.

Getting back to the epiphany I experienced oh, 150 pages ago on this thread... I went to a Catholic mass the other day, and it really depressed me. They kept talking about how small we were and how little we understood and "proclaiming the mystery of faith." I wanted to puke. Those words are in there for a reason.

ETA - DOC, do you know what language the bible was written in? Specifically "Luke?"

 

[X]

Some people went nuts in here when I said Sir William M. Ramsay said Gospel writer Luke was a great historian without providing additional info, but joobz gets a free pass and no one but me says a whimper when he continues to state as fact Jesus condones slavery even though 9 English translations say the word is servant (not slave.)

Once again, DOC, you miss the point.

Allow me to explain (I'll try to use small words):


You said the Sir William M. Ramsay called Luke a great historian. Your point rested entirely on what he said, and who he was. Using Ramsay's words as
This is an argument from authority. Not only that, but it is an argument from authority based off a quote-mine!

Your arguemtn about Ramsay, in other words, depends solely on who Ramsay is and what he said.

Which is why we scoffed when you brought it out, and reacted with scorn and derision each time you repeated it after that.



Joobz, on the other hand, has argued that Jesus condones servitude and the beating of workers.
Whether the worker is described as a slave, butler, servant, bond-servant, employee, or whatever is irrelevant to the point Joobz is trying to make.
Your fixation on it is an obvious red herring.
The point you'd want to argue, is not the translation of "dolous", but the translation of "beating".

Good luck.

Your precious Jesus, and by extension your fluffy little god, condoned the beating of workers.

If you claim that the New Testament writers told the truth (i.e. recorded fully factualy history), then you have to accept that beating workers is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of your god.


You might wonder how this applies to whether the New Testament writers told the truth?

Weel, think about this: Your cherished religion claims god as the source of morality. If god condones an immoral act in the pages of the new Testament, then it follows that either the claim of god as all good (which is written in the New Testament) is wrong, or else that the authors of the text didnot write down the truth.

It's a painted corner, DOC.

Joobz question utterly destroys your claims.


Unless you care to claim that beating people is moral?
You've tried to argue in support of many abhorent things, so this wouldn't actually surprise me.

 

[TSR]

Your precious Jesus, and by extension your fluffy little god, condoned the beating of workers.

.
What about the fluffy whipping of potato(e)s? I like to use some sour cream, ranch dressing or garlic powder, depending on the main entrée. Or Velveeta -- cheddar tastes better, but doesn't mix well...
.

 

[DOC]

Got any evidence that the people who wrote that story were telling the truth, DOC?

Do you have any evidence you were born on earth and not transported here by aliens A birth certificate could be forged (Some say that is what happened with Obama). Your relatives could be lying to you. Do you have film of your actual birth. Even that could be a fake.

 

[DOC]

But Jesus was god. Surely he could see the problem the word servant or slave would cause in the 21st century. Why did he not allow for a future culture?

Maybe it's not a problem for him because he really does want to let people know they will be severely punished for severe sin, like the severe sin of the servant who beat several men and beat several woman in Luke 12: 47.

 

[DOC]

Wow. What an amazing response. First of all, it's obviously a red herring; Jesus didn't say "servants who beat several men and several women will be beaten"; he said "servants who do against the will of their master will be beaten".

Yes, and he said that immediately following the parable (obviously it's implied). Why did he even bother to say such a parable with such a serious offense as beating several men and woman if he didn't want to convey it was for serious offenses.

 

[AdinDraco]

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I was just providing the german translations. (Which seem to be largely inspired by Luther's translation as "Knecht". Which actually makes a lot of sense given the context of his time. Serfdom was still around and known to the people, more than slavery. And I wouldn't consider serfdom that much of an improvement.)

Absolutely not! I find the translation discussions educational (some of them anyway) and they largely go over my head - you are by definition more educated than me in this area. Some posters just seem to think that if you call slavery by a different name, it's suddenly ok. Apologies.

 

[paximperium]

Do you have any evidence you were born on earth and not transported here by aliens A birth certificate could be forged (Some say that is what happened with Obama). Your relatives could be lying to you. Do you have film of your actual birth. Even that could be a fake.

So that's a NO EVIDENCE from DOC.

Maybe it's not a problem for him because he really does want to let people know they will be severely punished for severe sin, like the severe sin of the servant who beat several men and beat several woman in Luke 12: 47.

Or Jebus supporting the beating of "servants" who does not do what their master's expect?

Yes, and he said that immediately following the parable (obviously it's implied). Why did he even bother to say the parable if he didn't mean it was for serious offenses.

Because Jesus supports the beating of "servants".

 

[Akhenaten]

Got any evidence that the people who wrote that story were telling the truth, DOC?

Do you have any evidence you were born on earth and not transported here by aliens A birth certificate could be forged (Some say that is what happened with Obama). Your relatives could be lying to you. Do you have film of your actual birth. Even that could be a fake.

Does this ring a bell with you at all, DOC?

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth. ​

That's right! It's the thread title! Your thread title. My post simply reiterated it.

In what way does the garbage that you've posted above address it?

By the way, you need to figure out what this symbol is used for:

?​

Pathetic effort, DOC. 0/10. Fail. Resubmit.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Yes, and he said that immediately following the parable (obviously it's implied). Why did he even bother to say such a parable with such a serious offense as beating several men and woman if he didn't want to convey it was for serious offenses.

Wait...you're telling us that failing to accomplish a task that you have not been instructed you are to accomplish is a "serious offense"?

 

[joobz]

Do you have any evidence you were born on earth and not transported here by aliens A birth certificate could be forged (Some say that is what happened with Obama). Your relatives could be lying to you. Do you have film of your actual birth. Even that could be a fake.

So your best counter argument in support of the new testament writer's telling the truth is that Akhenaten could be an alien?


DOC, Which of the following statements is or is not more likely to be true?
"I ate chocolate."
"I am made entirely of chocolate and gumdrops."
why or why not?
Which statement would require more evidence to support it's truthfulness?

If all the bible claimed was that there was some guy who preached some good things (Like treat others as you want to be treated) and some bad things (like it's ok to beat slaves), I would have no problem with that. It's the fact that the bible also tries to claim that this guy is god. That's just silly.

 

[joobz]

Yes, and he said that immediately following the parable (obviously it's implied). Why did he even bother to say such a parable with such a serious offense as beating several men and woman if he didn't want to convey it was for serious offenses.

The parable also says that those who didn't know they were breaking a rule, would still be beaten (just not as badly). How would you feel if your boss one day whipped you so that your flesh would be torn and bleeding. Afterwards, you found out it was because you hadn't responded to his memo that he didn't give you.


ETA:
I like the little Obama aside in your post. One wonders why you felt compelled to include it.

 

[joobz]

Maybe it's not a problem for him because he really does want to let people know they will be severely punished for severe sin, like the severe sin of the servant who beat several men and beat several woman in Luke 12: 47.

Or maybe it's not a problem for him because he believed that the kingdom of heaven would come within their lifetime, like many apocalyptic cult leaders thought.

Or maybe he was a jerk?

 

[Akhenaten]