The War on Drugs is Useless

[BeAChooser]

The War on Drugs is Useless

We actually agree on this one. Been saying this for two decades. And the problem is that was the war wasn't fought right ... economically.

 

[dtugg]

How would the war be fought right?

 

[BeAChooser]

How would the war be fought right?

Create conditions where the folks trying to make money off of drugs ... can't.

Do this by making the drugs available to those who want/need them at or below what it costs those who want to profit from them to make them.

Decriminalize use under most circumstances.

But make the sale of drugs for profit an offense with a VERY severe penalty.

And finally, properly fund treatment programs.

Prohibition should have taught us a lesson.

 

[dtugg]

That seems like a reasonable approach.

 

[WildCat]

How do you guys actually propose legalization to work? Do you want the state to become a dope dealer?

Look at the impact the legal drugs have on society, tobacco and alcohol. Do you really want crystal meth added to that mess? Do you really want easily obtainable, cheap crack?

Sorry, I could get behind legalizing weed but the notion of flooding society with cheap, easily obtainable hard drugs supplied by the government is a stupid idea.

If you give the addicts their hard drugs for free, then the dealers go out of business. With the dealers out of business there's no one to push it on new users. Eventually the problem becomes less and less.

Who's going to go to a government clinic to shoot up heroin for the first time?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Create conditions where the folks trying to make money off of drugs ... can't.

Do this by making the drugs available to those who want/need them at or below what it costs those who want to profit from them to make them.

Decriminalize use under most circumstances.

But make the sale of drugs for profit an offense with a VERY severe penalty.

And finally, properly fund treatment programs.

Prohibition should have taught us a lesson.

BAC, you and I rarely see eye to eye, but I'm with you on this one

 

[fishbob]

Actually it is societies job to rule harmful things off-limits.

For substances, this has never actually worked. Society needs a better job.

 

[Virus]

Depends what you consider success Fishbob. 100% eradication of the problem? Then no law has ever worked.

Laws against child abuse aren't working. Children are still being abused. Let's legalize child abuse.

 

[BenBurch]

Child abuse is not a crime where somebody profits... Makes all the difference here.

Because drug use itself, while not ideal, is nothing compared to the harm that is caused by the laws against it creating an entire criminal apparatus.

What broke Capone's back? Repeal of prohibition. Do you argue, Virus, that we should go back to it?

 

[dtugg]

Child abuse has victims. Drug use is a victimless crime.

 

[Virus]

Child abuse is not a crime where somebody profits... Makes all the difference here.

Because drug use itself, while not ideal, is nothing compared to the harm that is caused by the laws against it creating an entire criminal apparatus.

What broke Capone's back? Repeal of prohibition. Do you argue, Virus, that we should go back to it?

There was organized crime before and after prohibition.

 

[Virus]

Child abuse has victims. Drug use is a victimless crime.

Absolute crap. Driver accidents, violent assaults, sexual assaults, unwanted pregnancy, child neglect. All linked to drug abuse. You think abuse has no effect on families? No effect on employers? Is the sky green where you live?

 

[dtugg]

There was organized crime before and after prohibition.

Were there gangs wars in Mexico leaving thousands of people dead before drug prohibition?

 

[Tatyana]

Yes, and and alcohol and ciggies are much more widely abused, cost society much more in damages and fill up the hospital beds much more that crackheads and cause scores more motor accidents.



No it's not sir. You can't just go down to the corner store and buy a baggie of cheap meth or LSD.



But apparently not cheap enough and not easily available enough for you.



Yeah so let's have it that you can buy smack at the tobacconists. Let's make it you can get anabolic steroids over the counter. We'll put them next to the aspirin. Let's increase the number of addicts. Let's increase the number of road accidents. Let's increase the number of people who can't work because they're on smack and putting an increased burden on the health care and welfare systems. That fixes everything.

There have been several trials of giving junkies medical grade heroin and safe shooting galleries, and not only does crime decrease, but so do some of the health related issues, like overdose and infection.

In fact, there is some good evidence this method is more effective in getting people off heroin.

The same with steroids, the problem with them in the US right now is a mess.

It would be far better to have users and addicts being supervised by medical professionals, rather than the bathtub chemistry, illegal labs and illegal trade.

I don't know about you, but having drugs being legal is not going to compel me to become a heroin-injecting, coke sniffing, roid head, and I don't think that the situation would differ than much for others.

 

[dtugg]

Absolute crap. Driver accidents, violent assaults, sexual assaults, unwanted pregnancy, child neglect. All linked to drug abuse.
You think abuse has no effect on families? No effect on employers? Is the sky green where you live?

Are you actually this dense or are you just pretending? Of course some drug users (and sober people) sometimes hurt others. And when they commit actual crimes with victims they should be prosecuted. But the act of using drugs has no victim. I've used every illegal drug you can think of and plenty that you can't, and not once have I ever hurt anybody as a result. Perhaps you can explain how my sitting at home with some friends getting high hurts anybody? That's a rhetorical question. You, of course, cannot.

And are you in favor of making alcohol illegal because lots of people get drunk and do stupid crap? Do you think that the act of drinking alcohol has victims?

 

[Tatyana]

So Desoxyn all round? No questions asked? How about benzodiazapine? Free for all on that? What's the point having prescriptions if you can buy PCP over the counter?



So in other words, no. But if I were you, I'd steer clear of alcohol analogies because they don't work in your favor. We know that alcohol is incredibly destructive and you want more of that destruction.



Ok so we'll legalize the sale of things that send people insane, ruin lives and kill people and we'll have a cavalier attitude about it. That should solve everything.

Logical fallacy: Slippery slope and false analogy.

If you want an alcohol analogy, just look at what happened in the only Western country that had prohibition.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Depends what you consider success Fishbob. 100% eradication of the problem? Then no law has ever worked.

Laws against child abuse aren't working. Children are still being abused. Let's legalize child abuse.

How on earth is that a valid comparison?

 

[Virus]

Of course some drug users (and sober people) sometimes hurt others. And when they commit actual crimes with victims they should be prosecuted. But the act of using drugs has no victim. I've used every illegal drug you can think of and plenty that you can't, and not once have I ever hurt anybody as a result. Perhaps you can explain how my sitting at home with some friends getting high hurts anybody? That's a rhetorical question. You, of course, cannot.

Getting high on what? Weed? Probably not. But you said legalize the lot. If you sit and home with your friends and do heroin you'll end up with a dependence, you won't be able to hold down a job and society will be forced to subsidize your drug habit.

And are you in favor of making alcohol illegal because lots of people get drunk and do stupid crap?

I told you that proponents of legalization should avoid bringing up alcohol because that gun only points at your foot. Think about all the social problems and costs caused by alcohol abuse then multiply that by at least three. Once for heroin, once for coke, once for meth. That's the most generous projection. That still doesn't take into account all the other drugs you want legalized that are habit forming.

Do you think that the act of drinking alcohol has victims?

A proportion does. Alcohol can be used in moderation to give a mild buzz. People don't use heroin for a mild buzz, they use it to get zonked. The addiction rate for exposure is much higher for drugs like heroin than alcohol. But even taking this into consideration, there is still a huge social cost involved with alcohol.

 

[dtugg]

Getting high on what? Weed? Probably not. But you said legalize the lot. If you sit and home with your friends and do heroin you'll end up with a dependence, you won't be able to hold down a job and society will be forced to subsidize your drug habit.

I've sat at home with my friends and done heroin. I didn't end up with a dependence and never leached off society. Who did I hurt?

I told you that proponents of legalization should avoid bringing up alcohol because that gun only points at your foot.

No it just show what an inconsistent hypocrite you are. That's why you refuse to answer any questions about it.

Think about all the social problems and costs caused by alcohol abuse then multiply that by at least three. Once for heroin, once for coke, once for meth. That's the most generous projection. That still doesn't take into account all the other drugs you want legalized that are habit forming.

Considering you just pulled those figures out of your ass, your argument is rejected. You have no evidence whatsoever that people would abuse heroin, coke, and meth at significantly higher rates than they do now, nonetheless at rates similar to alcohol.

A proportion does. Alcohol can be used in moderation to give a mild buzz. People don't use heroin for a mild buzz, they use it to get zonked. The addiction rate for exposure is much higher for drugs like heroin than alcohol. But even taking this into consideration, there is still a huge social cost involved with alcohol.

So we should ban alcohol, yes? That would surely solve all the huge social problems associated with it, correct?

 

[Virus]

I've sat at home with my friends and done heroin. I didn't end up with a dependence and never leached off society. Who did I hurt?

Appeal to personal testimony.

No it just show what an inconsistent hypocrite you are. That's why you refuse to answer any questions about it.

I know when someone is trying to deflect the issue. We're talking about legalizing heroin, coke and meth, not criminalizing alcohol.

Considering you just pulled those figures out of your ass, your argument is rejected. You have no evidence whatsoever that people would abuse heroin, coke, and meth at significantly higher rates than they do now, nonetheless at rates similar to alcohol.

Yeah right. Making drugs risk-free to obtain and cheaper will not increase the number of users. Talk about faith-based initiatives.