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The Official UK Election Thread! 6th May it is!

MarkCorrigan said:
Wow.

Go and talk to the many towns in Wales who went from very little unemployment to almost 100% practically overnight.

Go and talk to the families workers in Leicestershire who had to struggle when they found out they didn't have jobs anymore.

Go and talk to any coalmining community. ANY one, and tell them that it's a-ok that they went through deprivation and poverty because hey, the miones sure did suck!

I give you five minutes before you're torn apart.
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So you are advocating that a outdated industry should be kept going just to provide jobs?????

I agree the transition should and could have been much better handled, but, God, that is ridiculous.
 
Soapy Sam said:
Did someone say it had?
The NUM would be gone by now along with the industry that supported it.

The process might have been less painful.
It might have been worse.

I don't know.
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Your comment seems strangely detached from the realities of what miners, their families and their communities experienced from the Thatcher administration's brutal, militarized assault.



jimbob said:
That was New Labour's pitch.
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Why would the Tories abandon such a rich seam?

ETA: Granted, they'll probably add a few more Bad Guys, new and old!
 
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JihadJane said:
Your comment seems strangely detached from the realities of what miners, their families and their communities experienced from the Thatcher administration's brutal, militarized assault.
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My comment reflects the fact that the miners' strike was was a quarter of a century ago, that around half the pits active at the time had well known geological problems, that the north sea oil and gas fields were coming on stream and were already replacing coal as a primary energy generation fuel, that the steel industry, single largest industrial customer for coking coal was already shipping both ore and coal from abroad in bulk carriers docking at Hunterston, that the environmental movement was already a growing force with the coal industry dead in it's sights and that deep (ie subsurface) mining as an industry was going the way of the dodo because of labour costs and the real- and very necessary cost of raising safety standards in the mines.
It was already doomed and would be a memory even if the events of 1984-85 hadn't happened.

I know of no "Brutal, militarized assault" on mining communities. There were certainly some seriously questionable police tactics, but the boys on the other side of the picket line were no shrinking violets either. Much might be said on both sides.

But we are all I think agreed that more should have been done by way of retraining, rehabilitation , rehousing and the rest. My point is that the disruption of the way of life of the many small mining towns in Scotland and elsewhere would have happened in the last 25 years anyway, as it happened to shipbuilding communities, fishing communities and others. The difference often was that the other heavy industry was in towns and cities where alternative work was available. In smaller communities that was not the case. This is the story , not of the miners, Jane , this is the story of Scotland. And it ain't over yet by a long way.

Incidentally. Do you actually personally know any British ex-coalminers? I do. I've spent half my life in love with a coalminer's daughter. Hardest headed woman on the planet.
 
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Frank327 said:
And that's exactly why libdems complaining about them teaming up with the tories are being a hypocrite.
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Except the concessions that the Lib Dems got seem to be more along the lines of 'give us some cabinet seats and to hell with our policies'

Did they get PR out of this? No.

I would have been happy enough for the Libs to go into a Tory coalition if they were going to get PR out of it and maybe some other genuine concessions from the Tories. But they didn't.
 
jimbob said:
Thatcher was lucky:

Sending mixed messages about the Falklands then winning (which seems to have been closer than it might have been due to scheduled obsoleting of equipment that was then used)

Then having North Sea oil to hide some of the economic problems.

On top of that, having an unelectable opposition in 1983.

ETA: I remember listening to an American (I think) economist in about 1987, talking about the rise of the service economy, and he stated that "we can't all can't make a living holding doors open for each other", which sums up the problem with not actually creating wealth.
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Agreed - I think that Thatcher basically got away with the Falklands. Her government had taken their eye of the ball in the South Atlantic which gave the Argentinian generals the chance to invade.
Also, the Labour Party had decided after the 1979 election that they'd lost because they hadn't been left wing enough - so chose Michael Foot as leader who was, frankly, a pushover for Thatcher. I have heard left wiingers (after the '83 defeat) say that in retrospect they should have done a deal with Dennis Healey and elected him as leader. We might then have seen Maggie called to account rather more effectively and would have avoided the so-called "longest suicide note in history" in 1983.
Thatcher was indeed lucky - especially with the quality of her enemies.

Don't get me started on Scargill.
 
Agatha said:
It is, sadly. A small step but not far enough in my opinion.
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When you consider this to be the lib dems biggest chance to get what they built alot of their campaign on its a bit of a sell out. Av doesnt seem to change much. a bit of power and they are all the same
 
dudalb said:
So you are advocating that a outdated industry should be kept going just to provide jobs?????

I agree the transition should and could have been much better handled, but, God, that is ridiculous.
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An outdated industry? Au contraie mon ami, if you take coal mining for example it wasn't actually outdated, nor was it, as a number of people believe, making a massive loss for us either. The problem with it was, for the Tories, that they didn't consider it making enough money compared to the new power supply of North Sea gas. This, combined with the fact that Thatcher did not like unions one bit, meant that instead of say, bargaining for better prices for our coal, or further meshing it with our power companies (as had been done to keep coal one of our most profitable and useful industries, she decided to rip it apart, sell off what was left, and blame the people she trampled into the dirt for the loss of their jobs.

I consider the strike actions taken in the 80's to have been a bit excessive, and thanks to that douche Arthur Scargill, pushed relentlessly into a stalemate meaning that he left the miners even worse off for his actions. That being said, the way that a great number of communities were driven into the dust without so much as an apology leaves me to believe that she was an uncaring, hideous old bag who should have been ousted from power after the first economic crash she instigated.
 
Is there a realistic chance that a referendum on any kind of voting reform could pass if both Labour and the Conservatives actively campaign against it?
 
mbp said:
Is there a realistic chance that a referendum on any kind of voting reform could pass if both Labour and the Conservatives actively campaign against it?
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Cant see it with av but pr is such a simple message and appears fair that i couldnt see any other result than yes
 
mbp said:
Is there a realistic chance that a referendum on any kind of voting reform could pass if both Labour and the Conservatives actively campaign against it?
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Yes there is a chance. However the referendum would no doubt be done in such a way as to get the result they want.

Can't see AV making any difference at all - might get the last Tory out of Scotland I guess - amazed that it seems to be being reported as PR though. It clearly isn't but nice spin from Clegg.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
Except the concessions that the Lib Dems got seem to be more along the lines of 'give us some cabinet seats and to hell with our policies'

Did they get PR out of this? No.

I would have been happy enough for the Libs to go into a Tory coalition if they were going to get PR out of it and maybe some other genuine concessions from the Tories. But they didn't.
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The referendum about AV is not the only political reform there is. Remember also, that the libdems only got 57 seats, and the tories got 306 seats. Of course the libdems were going to have to compromise more than the tories. Even more so because labour didn't try for an alternative coalition.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
Can't see AV making any difference at all - might get the last Tory out of Scotland I guess - amazed that it seems to be being reported as PR though.
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No, it's got nothing to do with PR at all.

I still think it's better than FPTP, though, as it allows you to state your true preference without any fear of your vote being wasted. And you can effectively vote for "anyone but X".
 
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