Truth hypothesis

[ImANiceGuy]

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No, it's not. It's asking "why, if those interests were served (and since they must have been so served by Afghanistan since that is what happened,) did we not frame them instead? What was the benefit to that? Or if they were not served, why not?"
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Sorry TSR, I still don't get it. I think you might be able to re-phrase your question in a more reader-friendly way.

Your second reply/question implies that the "interests" have been served (past tense), and that Afghanistan was "framed".

Examples of simple follow-up questions would be: What do you think the financial interests of the global cabal are? Who makes up this 'global cabal'?

I do not mean to sound rude, I truly don't understand the meaning of your questions. I look forward to your reply.

 

[T.A.M.]

I'll start with something we certainly can all agree on. 4 planes crashed on 9/11. 2 into the towers, one into the pentagon, the other in a field.

Hypothesis: A cabal of global elites orchestrated an attack which served their geo-political/financial interests.

I'd be willing to extrapolate the hypothesis for any interested skeptics, as long as we can remain civil; please lets be civil.

I would like to stress that its JREF asking where all the truthers have gone, inviting us here for debate, etc. Don't be counter-productive and force me back to lurking status.

An interesting hypothesis, and one that would make for great hollywood drama. However, there has been no evidence provided to support your hypothesis. As a result it fails.

TAM

 

[ImANiceGuy]

An interesting hypothesis, and one that would make for great hollywood drama. However, there has been no evidence provided to support your hypothesis. As a result it fails.

TAM

Wait a minute, how can you so easily dismiss such a vague hypothesis?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Sorry TSR, I still don't get it. I think you might be able to re-phrase your question in a more reader-friendly way.

Let me try. If the aim was to promote attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan with the assistance of Saudi Arabia, why were the overwhelming majority of the operatives carrying out the plan chosen to be Saudi Arabian, and none chosen to be Afghan or Iraqi?

Dave

 

[T.A.M.]

Wait a minute, how can you so easily dismiss such a vague hypothesis?

Well based on the evidence brought so far, I have not seen ANY evidence pointing towards a global cabal behind 9/11. NWO by any other name...

TAM

 

[Telltale Tom]

Bearing in my mind that you are probably either trolling, or playing Devil's Advocate, I will still answer the only points where you seem to deviate from the commonly accepted theory.

• Indeed, where DID S. Jones get the samples? The unconfirmed chain of custody is one of the cririque points raised against his shoddy paper[/QUOTE]
  Look he found a very unusual mixture of Al and Fe and when put together they could be thermite.
  He also found other explosives such as O and H and these two could have been indicators of other explosive gasses
  He also found traces of fire accelerants... a bit like jet fuel
• Thermite is an incendiary and does not detonate in any fashion deemed useful by demolition experts
  That explains why there was no loud bangs
• The Jones, harriet ed.al. paper really does not proof they found thermite. The methods they used were not capable of producing such proof. If we assume methods to be valid, then the data in the paper would proof, on the contrary, that whatever they analyzed there could not possibly have been thermite. Therefore we can say with certainty that no thermite at all has been found.
  Thats not what they say
• The tell-tale insanely loud cracking bangs of explosives at the moment of collapse initiation are conspicuously absent from any recordings and witness reports of the event. A minimum charge of 9 pounds high explosives would be needed to sever only one column, but all CD theories are based on the disbelief of CTers that a single column failure could bring down any of the buildings as neatly as the seemed to be.
  I think you will find proof of explosions at multiple levels on the ae911truth web site
• If you put thermite or explosives into fire-protected boxes, that implies you can't bring them into ideal contact with the columns they are supposed to sever, which significantly increases the amount you need, and the force of the insanely loud bang associated with their detonation

But you say thermite doesn't create a bang. Maybe it was special fire protection? Thats why we need a new investigation.

 

[Edx]

[*]Thermite is an incendiary and does not detonate in any fashion deemed useful by demolition experts
That explains why there was no loud bangs

So then...

1. Why does the truth movement make so many claims about loud explosions then? You can't have it both ways.

2. Why does Gage claim that explosives were so intense they flung heavy steel around? That's gonna have to be extremely loud too.

3. People like Steven Jones has said that nano thermite can be "painted" onto steel and when it dries it becomes a "high explosive'. That means he is saying it would go bang. [he said that on Jesse Ventura's show on 911]

[*]The tell-tale insanely loud cracking bangs of explosives at the moment of collapse initiation are conspicuously absent from any recordings and witness reports of the event. A minimum charge of 9 pounds high explosives would be needed to sever only one column, but all CD theories are based on the disbelief of CTers that a single column failure could bring down any of the buildings as neatly as the seemed to be.
I think you will find proof of explosions at multiple levels on the ae911truth web site

I will find people like Richard Gage showing he has no idea how thermite works, how sound works or how explosives work.

For example:

[*]If you put thermite or explosives into fire-protected boxes, that implies you can't bring them into ideal contact with the columns they are supposed to sever, which significantly increases the amount you need, and the force of the insanely loud bang associated with their detonation
But you say thermite doesn't create a bang. Maybe it was special fire protection? Thats why we need a new investigation.

Yes, thermite doesn't go bang, I think Oystein didn't mean to write that, or he was commenting on the fact that since truthers think thermite is a high explosive therefore if it was in a box it would do even less damage.

 

[tj15]

I'll start with something we certainly can all agree on. 4 planes crashed on 9/11. 2 into the towers, one into the pentagon, the other in a field.

Hypothesis: A cabal of global elites orchestrated an attack which served their geo-political/financial interests.

I'd be willing to extrapolate the hypothesis for any interested skeptics, as long as we can remain civil; please lets be civil.

I would like to stress that its JREF asking where all the truthers have gone, inviting us here for debate, etc. Don't be counter-productive and force me back to lurking status.

I will remain completely civil.

Can you answer the list of questions that I posted in post #52?

 

[TSR]

Your second reply/question implies that the "interests" have been served (past tense), and that Afghanistan was "framed".

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No, these are the logical consequences of *your* thesis that "A cabal of global elites orchestrated an attack which served their geo-political/financial interests."

One of the demonstrable direct results of this attack was the invasion of Afghanistan.

So, either: the orchestration failed (if Afghanistan wasn't the goal,) or we framed other countries to justify the invasion.

Which of these do you contend happened, and why do you think so?
.

Examples of simple follow-up questions would be: What do you think the financial interests of the global cabal are? Who makes up this 'global cabal'?

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Since *I* do not posit a global elite while you do, I would suggest that *you* answer these.
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I do not mean to sound rude, I truly don't understand the meaning of your questions. I look forward to your reply.

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The meaning of my questions is to point out that you have no factual basis for your thesis nor any evidence to support it, making it completely irrelevant to what actually happened.
.

 

[Oystein]

Hehe ok let's continue the game!

QUOTE=Telltale Tom;5924134

• Indeed, where DID S. Jones get the samples? The unconfirmed chain of custody is one of the cririque points raised against his shoddy paper[/QUOTE]
  Look he found a very unusual mixture of Al and Fe and when put together they could be thermite.
  He also found other explosives such as O and H and these two could have been indicators of other explosive gasses
  He also found traces of fire accelerants... a bit like jet fuel
  May I put the goal posts back to where they were? The point I raised was chain of custody. Problems with ~. Ya know? Whatever they found is somewhat devalued by the uncertainty about the origin of their samples.
• Thermite is an incendiary and does not detonate in any fashion deemed useful by demolition experts
  That explains why there was no loud bangs
  Cool. When there are no loud bangs, it follows that thermite was used? Let's see... I am just back from my favourite Turkish restaurant where I fetched a kebap. I did not hear any loud bangs while they prepared it for me, so I conclude they fry their döner with thermite. Right?
• The Jones, harriet ed.al. paper really does not proof they found thermite. The methods they used were not capable of producing such proof. If we assume methods to be valid, then the data in the paper would proof, on the contrary, that whatever they analyzed there could not possibly have been thermite. Therefore we can say with certainty that no thermite at all has been found.
  Thats not what they say
  Aight. That's why we say they err.
• The tell-tale insanely loud cracking bangs of explosives at the moment of collapse initiation are conspicuously absent from any recordings and witness reports of the event. A minimum charge of 9 pounds high explosives would be needed to sever only one column, but all CD theories are based on the disbelief of CTers that a single column failure could bring down any of the buildings as neatly as the seemed to be.
  I think you will find proof of explosions at multiple levels on the ae911truth web site
  Show me!
• If you put thermite or explosives into fire-protected boxes, that implies you can't bring them into ideal contact with the columns they are supposed to sever, which significantly increases the amount you need, and the force of the insanely loud bang associated with their detonation
  But you say thermite doesn't create a bang. Maybe it was special fire protection? Thats why we need a new investigation.
  Maybe it was fairies or the FSM or aliens from Beteigeuze. We definitely need a new investigation - no one tested for fairy dust!

 

[Oystein]

I'll start with something we certainly can all agree on. 4 planes crashed on 9/11. 2 into the towers, one into the pentagon, the other in a field.

ETA: Right, I agree with this and believe we all ("debunkers") do.

Hypothesis: A cabal of global elites orchestrated an attack which served their geo-political/financial interests.

I'd be willing to extrapolate the hypothesis for any interested skeptics, as long as we can remain civil; please lets be civil.
...

Uhm yes, that hypothesis is a little slim, as it does not do much in the way of explaining.

It's essentially this:


[Black box 1] -> [black box 2] -> 4x KAWOOOOM -> War!


I understand the last link, how the 4 planes crashing the way they did, caused outrage and was used to motivate the fine people of the USA for a couple of wars.

Could you please fill out a little the 2 preceding Black Boxes, where [Black Box 1] would be the identity of the cabal, and [Black Box 2] all the many things they did to make the Kawooom happen?
For starters: What planes did crash, and how were they flown to their final destination? By whom? ETA: Did WTC1, 2 and 7 collapse due to onyl the plane crahses and resulting fires?
Does your hypothesis include the same 19 Arabs with box cutters hijacking the same airliners by UA and AA?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Let's try this:

Truthers, please answer these questions...

1. Were planes used on 9/11?
ummm, yes. I hope for your own sake you do not entertain anyone answering "no"
2. Were the towers/WTC7 brought down with CD?
I disagree with the CD label. However, I believe more than just planes caused the collapses(yeah, fire helped- some of you are surely thinking mockingly)
3. Was thermite what brought down the towers/WTC7?
No opinion as to the method of demolition as of yet; however, I'm not satisfied with the popular debunking of Jones Harrit, et al.'s paper
4. Were conventional demolition explosives what brought down the towers/WTC7?
Nothing about the demolition; NIST eliminates them through recorded db levels during the collapses. An interesting Truther rebuttal exists in regards to this
5. Were the planes remote controlled?
Possibly
6. Were "terrorists" on board the planes?
If Truman or Kissinger had been on board, would they count?
7. Were the calls and recordings on the planes fake?
have not looked into this enough to comment
8. Did an airplane hit the Pentagon?
Did Cheney get rich from his Haliburton investments? (rhetorical question)
9. Was flight 93 shot down?
Yes
10. Was a shootdown of flight 93 a part of the "plan?"
I don't think so. Whose plan are we talking about though?
11. According to the "plan," did flight 93 have a target?
I can only speculate to its final destination, but suffice to say that it wasn't in anyones plan to crash in a field.

...as requested TJ.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

ETA: Right, I agree with this and believe we all ("debunkers") do.



Uhm yes, that hypothesis is a little slim, as it does not do much in the way of explaining.

It's essentially this:


[Black box 1] -> [black box 2] -> 4x KAWOOOOM -> War!


I understand the last link, how the 4 planes crashing the way they did, caused outrage and was used to motivate the fine people of the USA for a couple of wars.

Could you please fill out a little the 2 preceding Black Boxes, where [Black Box 1] would be the identity of the cabal, and [Black Box 2] all the many things they did to make the Kawooom happen?
For starters: What planes did crash, and how were they flown to their final destination? By whom? ETA: Did WTC1, 2 and 7 collapse due to onyl the plane crahses and resulting fires?
Does your hypothesis include the same 19 Arabs with box cutters hijacking the same airliners by UA and AA?

You've redeemed yourself in my eyes with your formula. I love formulas; but they tend to over-simplify complex scenarios such as our topic of discussion. I'll try to address your specific questions as well:

Black Box 1: The global cabal is comprised of the global financial/political elite, and its incredible complexity is derived from the immense compartmentalization within. It is important to note that the cabal extends far beyond the American administration, or the Israelis for that matter.

...some of the other questions were just answered in previous post....feel free to fire follow-ups!

 

[Oystein]

You've redeemed yourself in my eyes with your formula.

Redeemed - from what??

I love formulas; but they tend to over-simplify complex scenarios such as our topic of discussion. I'll try to address your specific questions as well:

Black Box 1: The global cabal is comprised of the global financial/political elite, and its incredible complexity is derived from the immense compartmentalization within. It is important to note that the cabal extends far beyond the American administration, or the Israelis for that matter.

Would you have a rough estimate as to how many people that would be? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?
Or could you just cut the crap ("immense compartmentalization" I think should tip me off to the idea that only a few within the cabal would actually know about the plan to attack America) - who within the cabal had the will and the means to bring about actual attacks?
What made you name specifically "Israelis"? I do expect a very specific and personal answer to this question!

...some of the other questions were just answered in previous post....feel free to fire follow-ups!

Oh dear! You call that answers???

1. [ok, 4 planes]
2. Were the towers/WTC7 brought down with CD?
[...]I believe more than just planes caused the collapses(yeah, fire helped- some of you are surely thinking mockingly)
Who? When? What? How?
3. Was thermite what brought down the towers/WTC7?
No opinion as to the method of demolition as of yet; however, I'm not satisfied with the popular debunking of Jones Harrit, et al.'s paper
In other words: No answer. (The debunking was scientific, not popular, btw)
4. Were conventional demolition explosives what brought down the towers/WTC7?
Nothing about the demolition; NIST eliminates them through recorded db levels during the collapses. An interesting Truther rebuttal exists in regards to this
In other words: No answer. Which rebuttal is that?
5. Were the planes remote controlled?
Possibly
In other words: No answer.
6. Were "terrorists" on board the planes?
If Truman or Kissinger had been on board, would they count?
In other words: No answer.
7. Were the calls and recordings on the planes fake?
have not looked into this enough to comment
In other words: No answer.
8. Did an airplane hit the Pentagon?
Did Cheney get rich from his Haliburton investments? (rhetorical question)
In other words: No answer.
9. Was flight 93 shot down?
Yes
ok
10. Was a shootdown of flight 93 a part of the "plan?"
I don't think so. Whose plan are we talking about though?
Is this at all important for the theory? If so, elaborate. I'd happy to drop this question to keep things simpler.
11. According to the "plan," did flight 93 have a target?
I can only speculate to its final destination, but suffice to say that it wasn't in anyones plan to crash in a field.
ok

So you essentially provided no answer to 6 out of 10 relevant question, gave sufficient answers to 3, insufficient to 1.

Does this answer my questions? Let's see... my questions in blue, followed by the answer I extract from your previous post:

What planes did crash? ... the same airliners by UA and AA? -> Not answered

how were they flown to their final destination? -> not answered

By whom? Does your hypothesis include the same 19 Arabs with box cutters hijacking...? -> not answered

Did WTC1 and 2 collapse due to onyl the plane crahses and resulting fires? [is it ok to separate the towers from 7?] -> unclear, maybe you say no, maybe that's not what you imply.

Did 7 collapse due to onyl the resulting fires? -> You say no, something in addition was employed. Any idea what?


So no new questions, as the old ones are largely unanswered.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Give me 20 minutes to catch up on this thread and I promise a solid reply full of vague speculation and unsupported theories....

 

[ImANiceGuy]

.
No, these are the logical consequences of *your* thesis that "A cabal of global elites orchestrated an attack which served their geo-political/financial interests."

One of the demonstrable direct results of this attack was the invasion of Afghanistan.

So, either: the orchestration failed (if Afghanistan wasn't the goal,) or we framed other countries to justify the invasion.

Which of these do you contend happened, and why do you think so?

My bold used to display his horribly poor comprehension.

What the hell kind of choices are you giving me here man?? I don't understand a thing you're asking...

somone help.....am I stupid?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Would you have a rough estimate as to how many people that would be? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?

'The super-elites'(those who defy the compartmentalization) within the unnamed global cabal could probably be no more than 100; but I'm explicitly reserving the right to adjust this estimate

Or could you just cut the crap ("immense compartmentalization" I think should tip me off to the idea that only a few within the cabal would actually know about the plan to attack America) - who within the cabal had the will and the means to bring about actual attacks?

Well the will is more complicated than the means, but they are both ultra-complex. Those with the will would be the financial-geopolitical engineers; the same type of people who wage wars that take the lives of many people, civilian and combatant. Over a million people have died in Iraq; is an Iraqi life worth more than an Americans? My point is that I am of the opinion that these people do not value human life. Those who specifically engineered the event have not a shred of Nationalism. Cheney is my number one....but most likely the biggest players names remain largely unknown
What made you name specifically "Israelis"? I do expect a very specific and personal answer to this question!
This has to do with the misconception that any one government was responsible; The US and Israel are the usual Truther targets; I could have said Pakistan, or Turkey.....it has nothing to do with Jewish people just as it has nothing to do with Christian or Hindu people.

Lets go to one question at a time.....I'm overwhelmed.

 

[Oystein]

they are both ultra-complex

Generally speaking:
Do ultra-complex organisations function well? At all?
Do ultra-complex plans ever work out?


Give me an honest answer - that should end the discussion at once.

 

[Oystein]

This has to do with the misconception that any one government was responsible; The US and Israel are the usual Truther targets; I could have said Pakistan, or Turkey.....it has nothing to do with Jewish people just as it has nothing to do with Christian or Hindu people.

Why did you regurgitate this usual truther ********? Does it help your theory along in any way?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Why did you regurgitate this usual truther ********? Does it help your theory along in any way?

Ummm...I was asked to clarify..