Love the Christian, but not the Christianity.

[Mirrorglass]

I'm giving honest answers. I don't know what more you want.


As best I can, answers below.

Is being homosexual a sin? No.
Is homosexual sex (as in sexual acts between two men or two women) a sin? Yes.
Is having sex outside of marriage a sin? Yes.
Can a person who commits no sin, but does not embrace Jesus as their saviour go to heaven? Yes.
Will a person who has had homosexual sex, but regrets it, and embraces Jesus as their saviour go to heaven? Probably.
Will a person who regularly has homosexual sex, but regrets it, and embraces Jesus as their saviour go to heaven? Probably not.
Will a person who regularly has homosexual sex, but does not regret it, but still embraces Jesus as their saviour, go to heaven? Probably not.
Will a person who regularly has homosexual sex, but commits no other sin, and also does not embrace Jesus as their saviour, go to heaven? No.
Is there a sin so grave it cannot be atoned for, and will always lead to being thrown to hell? Probably not.

Thank you. Now that we have the facts on the table, let me go back to my original point.

According to Christian faith, God made the first humans, and knew how every single human would turn out. That means he knew some humans would be gay, and allowed it.

God also decreed that everyone who has homosexual sex (regularly) will go to hell. Yet he allows people to have homosexual tendencies, and hasn't even told all the homosexuals in the world that they are sinning. God certainly could turn homosexual people straight, yet he chooses not to. Yet he demands that all homosexuals repress their desires.

Basically, God wants homosexuals to go against their own nature - something you've stated even God cannot do. For most, this is an impossible task, and God must know it.

So, God knows many people will sin and go to hell, because it is their nature to sin. God could prevent this, but chooses not to. In my opinion, the only possible reason for such behaviour is that God wants certain people to go to hell. And that is sheer malevolence.

So when you say "God is as benevolent as possible", what you mean is "God is benevolent to some people, but malevolent to others". Personally, I consider that synonymous with just "malevolent"; after all, He's only benevolent when it suits Him, which is not really benevolence at all.

So, even if I believed your God existed, He would still be evil, and I would not want to follow him.

By the way, how do I quote a post without that post's quotes going away?

Click the envelope icon to quote the post in a PM, then copypaste the text to the reply box.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Thank you. Now that we have the facts on the table, let me go back to my original point.

According to Christian faith, God made the first humans, and knew how every single human would turn out. That means he knew some humans would be gay, and allowed it.

God also decreed that everyone who has homosexual sex (regularly) will go to hell. Yet he allows people to have homosexual tendencies, and hasn't even told all the homosexuals in the world that they are sinning. God certainly could turn homosexual people straight, yet he chooses not to. Yet he demands that all homosexuals repress their desires.

He demands that all humans repress their desires. This is not unique to homosexuals; this is part of internal conflict that is essential to being human.
You think homosexuality is somehow uniquely a case of having one's nature go against the will of God? I assume you think premarital heterosexual sex, adultery, theft, gluttony, murder, malice, etc. are all against the desires and urges of the people who practice them?
There's nothing unique about homosexual urges. The only difference is that, unlike all the other sinful impulses that we fight every day, you simply don't agree that this one is wrong. That's fine; but don't act like there's any reason to believe "it's right if we have an urge to do it", or that God generally made that the case except for gays. There's nothing special or unique about the gays' situation relative to all other human beings -- they've just managed to convince you that the sins they prefer to commit are "impossible" to resist.
Guess what -- they're not.

Basically, God wants homosexuals to go against their own nature - something you've stated even God cannot do. For most, this is an impossible task, and God must know it.

An impossible task? Certainly not. Being good is a difficult task, but not impossible. Never impossible.

So, God knows many people will sin and go to hell, because it is their nature to sin. God could prevent this, but chooses not to.

... because preventing it would be violating free will. There's no way for God to exclude all choices from human beings and still make morality meaningful.
You always have a free choice. Hard choices, yes, and we all have them -- but never impossible.

 

[Mirrorglass]

He demands that all humans repress their desires. This is not unique to homosexuals; this is part of internal conflict that is essential to being human.
You think homosexuality is somehow uniquely a case of having one's nature go against the will of God? I assume you think premarital heterosexual sex, adultery, theft, gluttony, murder, malice, etc. are all against the desires and urges of the people who practice them?
There's nothing unique about homosexual urges. The only difference is that, unlike all the other sinful impulses that we fight every day, you simply don't agree that this one is wrong. That's fine; but don't act like there's any reason to believe "it's right if we have an urge to do it", or that God generally made that the case except for gays. There's nothing special or unique about the gays' situation relative to all other human beings -- they've just managed to convince you that the sins they prefer to commit are "impossible" to resist.
Guess what -- they're not.

No, homosexuals have just managed to convince me that their "sin" does not hurt anyone. Are you truly equivocating the desire to have homosexual sex with the desire to murder? Of course you are. And you've even added in gluttony. Are you saying all fat Christians will go to hell?

My view is simple: a deed is only wrong if it hurts someone. Homosexuality hurts no one. Therefore, to say it's wrong is ridiculous. If a God made it a law that homosexuality is wrong and punishable, then that God is evil.

Also, why homosexuality? Do you also believe it is sinful for men to shave their heads, cut off the corners of their beards, or sleep with a woman while she is menstruating? Do you believe a man who knocks out a tooth from another man's mouth must have a tooth knocked out in turn? Or did Jesus overturn some of the Old Testament's laws? If so, why not homosexuality?

An impossible task? Certainly not. Being good is a difficult task, but not impossible. Never impossible.


... because preventing it would be violating free will. There's no way for God to exclude all choices from human beings and still make morality meaningful.
You always have a free choice. Hard choices, yes, and we all have them -- but never impossible.

Yes, quite impossible for many, many people, as history shows. God only wants the strongest of people, who have happened to learn the true religion, to go to Heaven. For the rest, he desires damnation.

As for free will, just taking away homosexual tendencies, or the desire to murder, or commit adultery, or any sin, would not violate free will. There is no reason to allow those desires to exist, except wanting them to be fulfilled.

 

[Shalamar]

He demands that all humans repress their desires. This is not unique to homosexuals; this is part of internal conflict that is essential to being human.
You think homosexuality is somehow uniquely a case of having one's nature go against the will of God? I assume you think premarital heterosexual sex, adultery, theft, gluttony, murder, malice, etc. are all against the desires and urges of the people who practice them?
There's nothing unique about homosexual urges. The only difference is that, unlike all the other sinful impulses that we fight every day, you simply don't agree that this one is wrong. That's fine; but don't act like there's any reason to believe "it's right if we have an urge to do it", or that God generally made that the case except for gays. There's nothing special or unique about the gays' situation relative to all other human beings -- they've just managed to convince you that the sins they prefer to commit are "impossible" to resist.
Guess what -- they're not.


An impossible task? Certainly not. Being good is a difficult task, but not impossible. Never impossible.


... because preventing it would be violating free will. There's no way for God to exclude all choices from human beings and still make morality meaningful.
You always have a free choice. Hard choices, yes, and we all have them -- but never impossible.

Very well.. I challenge you to give up sex.. Forever. If you are married, leave them, and have *no* close personal romantic relationships. Ever.

You are permitted to have platonic relationships only. Forever.

For that is what you are *demanding* that homosexuals do.

 

[dafydd]

In case Avalon has me on ignore,which is his way of dealing with awkward questions,can some one quote me.Why does your god give children cancer?

 

[thaiboxerken]

He demands that all humans repress their desires.

Didn't Jesus say that the desire is just as much a sin as the act itself?

 

[Mirrorglass]

In case Avalon has me on ignore,which is his way of dealing with awkward questions,can some one quote me.Why does your god give children cancer?

Here you go.

 

[AvalonXQ]

My view is simple: a deed is only wrong if it hurts someone. Homosexuality hurts no one. Therefore, to say it's wrong is ridiculous. If a God made it a law that homosexuality is wrong and punishable, then that God is evil.

Right. That's the basic problem -- and it's not a contradiction or inconsistency in Christian understanding at all. It's just a difference in factual belief.
You believe that anything adults can do consensually that doesn't harm a third party cannot be wrong.
I believe that God has the right to make proper and improper uses for the world He created, and that acting against the will of God is wrong.
This is a basic difference in our understanding of the world, and of morality. And yours is entirely a matter of opinion -- there's nothing objective about it.
Calling God "evil" because morality stretches beyond physical harm and into categories of voluntary behavior is an arbitrary value judgment, and one that is unsupported by Christianity or the Bible.

 

[Darth Rotor]

In case Avalon has me on ignore,which is his way of dealing with awkward questions,can some one quote me.

Why does your god give children cancer?

Can you walk me through how you came to this conclusion, before you asked the question that assumed the answer?

DR

 

[AvalonXQ]

Also, why homosexuality? Do you also believe it is sinful for men to shave their heads, cut off the corners of their beards, or sleep with a woman while she is menstruating? Do you believe a man who knocks out a tooth from another man's mouth must have a tooth knocked out in turn? Or did Jesus overturn some of the Old Testament's laws? If so, why not homosexuality?

My understanding is that the sexual laws are older and more basic than the rest. They predated Moses, and so they and other restrictions that predated Moses (like idolatry and murder) are carried forward as rules for humans even under the law of Christ.

God only wants the strongest of people, who have happened to learn the true religion, to go to Heaven.

Strength has nothing to do with it. Weakness is expected. What God is looking for is the willingness to change.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Didn't Jesus say that the desire is just as much a sin as the act itself?

No. Jesus explained that an act could be wrong even if you don't physically commit it; that the fully commiting of yourself to a fantasy sexual sin can be as wrong as the sin itself, at least in its effect on you. We're talking about something way beyond the lust reflex.

 

[thaiboxerken]

No. Jesus explained that an act could be wrong even if you don't physically commit it; that the fully commiting of yourself to a fantasy sexual sin can be as wrong as the sin itself, at least in its effect on you. We're talking about something way beyond the lust reflex.

Right, so even thinking about doing something sinful is just as bad as the sin itself.

Desire = action.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Right. That's the basic problem -- and it's not a contradiction or inconsistency in Christian understanding at all. It's just a difference in factual belief.
You believe that anything adults can do consensually that doesn't harm a third party cannot be wrong.
I believe that God has the right to make proper and improper uses for the world He created, and that acting against the will of God is wrong.
This is a basic difference in our understanding of the world, and of morality. And yours is entirely a matter of opinion -- there's nothing objective about it.
Calling God "evil" because morality stretches beyond physical harm and into categories of voluntary behavior is an arbitrary value judgment, and one that is unsupported by Christianity or the Bible.

True. Both our views are essentially value judgments, and those are, by nature, arbitrary. The difference is my values are based on simple, provable outcomes that a vast majority of the human race desires, while yours are based on mythological claims with no evidence whatsoever for them. You do, of course, have the right to believe in whatever you want. You do not, however, have the right to judge homosexuals or other sinners. Even the Bible agrees with this. As for your idea that Christians merely "want to save others from damnation", don't bother. If God is benevolent, He will save us. If he isn't, we're damned anyway. If he doesn't exist, it's all the same. Your "help" is not needed in any case.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Can you walk me through how you came to this conclusion, before you asked the question that assumed the answer?

DR

He asked in post #148.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Right, so even thinking about doing something sinful is just as bad as the sin itself.

Desire = action.

No. That is restating the position I just corrected, and ignoring that I just explained why it was wrong.

Desire != action.
Spiritual impact (desire + focusing on that desire + giving yourself over mentally and emotionally to that desire) ~ Spiritual impact (acting on that desire).

There's a big difference between being attracted to someone (not sinful) and actively fantasizing about that person (possibly sinful). Actively fantasizing about a sexual encounter with someone can be, in its effects on you, similar to actually having that encounter. Which is why Jesus warns against it as "committing adultery in your heart".
This is more than attraction or a lustful look. Jesus is saying that when it goes a lot farther than that, even if it doesn't actually make it all the way to action, it can still be wrong.

 

[AvalonXQ]

As for your idea that Christians merely "want to save others from damnation", don't bother. If God is benevolent, He will save us. If he isn't, we're damned anyway. If he doesn't exist, it's all the same. Your "help" is not needed in any case.

You say this. The Bible says the opposite.
If God tells me He requires and expects me to help others, that's what I'm going to do -- even if you tell me my actions are futile.

 

[thaiboxerken]

This is more than attraction or a lustful look. Jesus is saying that when it goes a lot farther than that, even if it doesn't actually make it all the way to action, it can still be wrong.

What if the desire manifests itself in a dream? Is that still sinful?

 

[Mirrorglass]

My understanding is that the sexual laws are older and more basic than the rest. They predated Moses, and so they and other restrictions that predated Moses (like idolatry and murder) are carried forward as rules for humans even under the law of Christ.

Are you referring to the destruction of Sodom? It's hardly clear from the Bible whether or not homosexuality was the sin responsible for the destruction of the city. Or the part where Ham "sees the nakedness of his father"? Apart from those, I don't think there's any reference to homosexuality before Leviticus, and those two are very cryptic, and it would take quite a bit to view them as laws.

 

[AvalonXQ]

What if the desire manifests itself in a dream? Is that still sinful?

I'd expect not. Sinning is about making choices; I don't think we have choices in dreams.
On the other hand, based solely on my own dream history, I'd expect that frequent wet dreams about a specific person may be evidence you should consider where your heart is with regard to that person.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Keep reading. I challenge you to find and explain this verse's context.

Do you really think it logical that Jesus Christ came to instruct us not to discern right from wrong and good from evil?

No. No. You misunderstand.

I interpret the Bible and you pervert the Holy Words of the Lord.

http://www.biblebrowser.com/matthew/7-1.htm