Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Michael Mozina]

There is no iron on the surface in the way you believe it to be.

Then when we run the long cadence RD image, the edge of the disk will not align with the limb dimming feature at 4800K. If there is a on iron rich surface, that's exactly what will happen.

 

[GeeMack]

You call that civil? You and I have a strong disagreement about what it means, but I'm not "dishonest" and I'm really trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt too. At worst case one of us has lots of conviction and is simply wrong. One test will tell.

You've used that "one test will tell" argument so many times in the past, and you've failed to acknowledge the failures of those tests. Your repetition of that argument seems likely to provide the same results.

Not in an honest scientific way with real numbers. Care to give it a whirl?

Of course I've used real numbers, so your objection is dishonest. Remember when I said that running difference graph you posted, on my monitor, is about 1/17209728800th the dimension of the lower boundary of the chromosphere? Post another one and I'll calculate the relative size of it, too. It's math. Understand?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Dear GM,

Use those contacts at NASA for something useful. Remind them that their so called "artifact" is a "feature" of every iron ion limb image released to date from SDO. Tell them if they want a high resolution version of the disk, all they have to do is use that same exact software routine that created this image:

Have them overlay that RD image in 171A with the chromosphere. Have them publish the image. Let's see what happens.

 

[Michael Mozina]

You've used that "one test will tell" argument so many times in the past, and you've failed to acknowledge the failures of those tests.

Actually, my theory passed that green light test with flying colors. Your SSM theory flunked the physics test entirely!

Will the disk be on the chromosphere, or inside the chromosphere?

 

[GeeMack]

That's a civil sentence in your opinion? The only one lying is the one that failed to put numbers on the table when it became crunch time. I put my numbers up. Did you?

I've told you exactly what the mathematical formula is for making a running difference graph. When it comes to graphs, that's really the only relevant numbers. It's math, simple addition and subtraction of two and three digit numbers.

But you seem to forget you're the one making a claim here. Nobody else has any responsibility to do your work for you. The burden of proof, Michael, is yours and yours alone.

That's because you are afraid to come up with any numbers. If you were not afraid, you would put up your diameter and let history decide. You'd rather smear me on personal level instead. The only one acting dishonestly is you. I have made my next prediction. I've told you how to test it. I've been specific about how it will line up with the limb dimming feature of the original images and it will be consistently 4800Km inside the chromosphere, +- 1200KM. What were your numbers again?

I predict that the results of analysis of the SDO images will be in agreement with the current consensus position that the Sun's diameter is approximately 1.39 million kilometers.

Oh, and your continued claim to be able to see through 80,000 kilometers of plasma is ludicrous. It's a ridiculous, totally unsupportable argument from ignorance.

 

[Ziggurat]

Actually, my theory passed that green light test with flying colors. Your SSM theory flunked the physics test entirely!

It wasn't a test at all, Michael. It was an image processing artifact. The only failure was your understanding.

In fact, you're a complete failure from top to bottom when it comes to physics. Your errors are legion. Seriously, have you ever even taken a physics course?

And yes, Michael, I'm attacking you personally, because you deserve it. You have spent years here, arguing in bad faith, ignoring the problems with your model, refusing to answer basic questions, avoiding quantification at every turn. I've tried to actually argue substance with you, but you refuse to do so. My patience with you has worn out. You are a delusional troll, nothing more. You will grow old and die without any serious scientist accepting your model, because your model is crackpottery.

 

[Michael Mozina]

And let's not forget a week or two ago:

Do the RD test I just mentioned. FYI, that "artifact" exists in every SDO and TRACE limb image. It's not an artifact of any sort. In fact those little jagged edges are distinct characteristics of the transition region as seen in any TRACE limb image. LMSAL just put the 'transition region' on the wrong side of the inside edge of the chromosphere.

 

[GeeMack]

Actually, my theory passed that green light test with flying colors. Your SSM theory flunked the physics test entirely!

Will the disk be on the chromosphere, or inside the chromosphere?

Word salad. What disk? What chromosphere? What do you mean by "on" and "inside"? What scale? And what organization of professional astrophysicists will we have as the arbiter of the success of your prediction?

And what if there's a greater error in the number of pixels than the number you claim to be significant to your claim? I've told you a dozen times now there are some serious errors with that SDO PR image that you so thoroughly misunderstand. Count those pixels again. You miscounted... badly.

 

[Michael Mozina]

It wasn't a test at all, Michael. It was an image processing artifact.

Baloney! That limb dimming "feature" exist in *EVERY* iron ion wavelength. Find me one SDO image that doesn't have that "artifact"? That is *NOT* an artifact.

And yes, Michael, I'm attacking you personally, because you deserve it.

Nope. Nobody on Earth deserves this sort of treatment.

You have spent years here, arguing in bad faith, ignoring the problems with your model,

The only "problems" I've ignored are the the problems you percieve based on your own theories, not mine.

refusing to answer basic questions, avoiding quantification at every turn.

Boloney. I gave you a quantified number on that disk size. I've explained how to find it. Nobody here will even bet their public position on the outcome.

You are a delusional troll, nothing more. You will grow old and die without any serious scientist accepting your model, because your model is crackpottery.

And you guys want to have a civil dialog?

I dare each and every one of you to come up with a published SDO or Trace Limb image that doesn't show that same limb dimming "feature". That is no "artifact". That's not even a good excuse because anyone that looks at the iron ion images from SDO will see it's not true.

 

[phunk]

I dare each and every one of you to come up with a published SDO or Trace Limb image that doesn't show that same limb dimming "feature".

We'll have to start by you explaining exactly what YOU mean by "limb dimming feature".

 

[GeeMack]

Do the RD test I just mentioned. FYI, that "artifact" exists in every SDO and TRACE limb image.

No, it simply does not. You have already been shown a second version of that PR image from the SDO first-light material which does not show that green border. When the color layers are separated out of the images there is no such border. In fact in the color separations, there is an artifact which is entirely consistent with JPG compression of a circular gradient filter placed over the image. Several other pieces of SDO PR data have been published, almost none of which show the same kind of alignment error which created that green line.

Having some expertise in image processing, and having discussed the matter directly with the SDO team at NASA, I can tell you that your argument here is an argument from incredulity and ignorance, and is flat out unsupported, unsubstantiated rubbish. For you to claim otherwise would be a lie.

 

[GeeMack]

Baloney! That limb dimming "feature" exist in *EVERY* iron ion wavelength. Find me one SDO image that doesn't have that "artifact"? That is *NOT* an artifact.

The science team for the SDO project at NASA says it is. So it's the people who designed the equipment, launched the satellite, operate the equipment, acquire the data, process the data, and analyze the data, a group made up of hundreds of highly educated astrophysicists including several who hold doctorate degrees, who say it is a processing artifact. And there's you, Michael, the lone voice of disagreement. And it's been shown beyond the doubt of anyone in this conversation that you simply are not qualified to understand solar imagery of any kind.

You are wrong. Sorry. It's an artifact. No matter how loud you shout and how long you thrown the tantrum, it's an artifact.

Oh, and you cannot see through 80,000 kilometers of plasma, so artifact or not, your argument is laughably ridiculous.

 

[D'rok]

Baloney! That limb dimming "feature" exist in *EVERY* iron ion wavelength. Find me one SDO image that doesn't have that "artifact"? That is *NOT* an artifact.

Why not contact the SDO folks yourself and get their explanation?

http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/mission/contact.php

You're not worried about what they might say, are you?

 

[Ziggurat]

Nobody on Earth deserves this sort of treatment.

Oh, please. Quit the drama queen act. This is a message board. Nothing I can say is actually capable of harming you.

The only "problems" I've ignored are the the problems you percieve based on your own theories, not mine.

Which is basically an admission that you don't believe your theory has to conform to thermodynamics, gravity, or basic material property constraints.

Boloney. I gave you a quantified number on that disk size.

And you've avoided giving me numbers on your cathode refrigeration model, the interior pressure or temperature of the sun, the gravitational self-attraction of a water bubble which you consider equivalent to your model, etc. All of which I asked for quite some time ago.

And you guys want to have a civil dialog?

This ceased being a dialogue long ago, Michael, when you made it clear you had no interest in actually learning anything which might dispel any of your vast ignorance.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

[...]

The only "problems" I've ignored are the the problems you percieve based on your own theories, not mine.

Which is basically an admission that you don't believe your theory has to conform to thermodynamics, gravity, or basic material property constraints.

[...]

And then some; for example: conservation of energy, conservation of charge, Maxwell's equations, atomic physics, ... even the basic geometry first (?) written up by some ancient Greeks.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Word salad. What disk?

What disk? From SDO's perspective the sun is a giant "disk" in the sky. That disk! This disk in a long cadence RD image:

What chromosphere?

The red/orange flaming ring is the chromosphere in SDO.

What do you mean by "on" and "inside"?

The limb darkening is *INSIDE* of the chromosphere. Likewise the RD image will reside *INSIDE* of that chromosphere. If we were to look at a full disk image, it will show up inside that red/orange region with 4800KM to spare. It will be physically and directly related to that limb darkening region.

Let's recap for the newbies now. You have a green "opaque" math bunny problem in the SDO images. If I had access to the FITS files, I would/could turn off the blue iron line in the original release image and demonstrate to you that you have a yellow math bunny problem. I'd then turn the blue line back on and demonstrate your bunny turns green again. I would then turn off the yellow line and turn your bunny blue. I would then turn the yellow line into a red line and make your bunny glow a pretty purple. Alas I can't play with your color bunnies because I can't access the FITS files yet.

The more "decisive' way to demonstrate this point is with the RD images. If the SSM is correct, all those iron line emissions *MUST* start above the chromosphere ring, and the RD image outline should end up right along that red orange ring. If however the iron emissions start at the limb darkened region as I believe they do, then the RD image will show a disk that fits nicely inside that red/orange ring with 4800 KM to spare.

There are technically two different RD techniques we might use. We could use a longer cadence version to find the edge of the disk to see if aligns itself with the chromosphere or the limb darkened region. The second and "better" way to go about it IMO would be to round up the higher cadence/averaged RD process that created this image:

Apply that process to the 171A channel of SDO. Then lay that chromosphere on top of that image. That will/would be one of *THE* most spectacular images of the sun for all time IMO. It will also demonstrate that the iron line emissions originate in the limb darkened areas, not at the chromosphere boundary. Of course those green bunny problems should have already told you all of this, but then denial seems to be the name of the game around here. "What disk"?

 

[sol invictus]

Let's recap for the newbies now. You have a green "opaque" math bunny problem in the SDO images. If I had access to the FITS files, I would/could turn off the blue iron line in the original release image and demonstrate to you that you have a yellow math bunny problem. I'd then turn the blue line back on and demonstrate your bunny turns green again. I would then turn off the yellow line and turn your bunny blue. I would then turn the yellow line into a red line and make your bunny glow a pretty purple. Alas I can't play with your color bunnies because I can't access the FITS files yet.

That makes everything very clear for any newbies that happen to read it. But I'm not sure the message they'll get is quite the one you intended to communicate, Michael.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Taking up an idea someone made, earlier in this thread (accurate attribution welcome): if I, or someone else, could find a sequence of images of Jupiter, or Saturn, could GM (or anyone else!) produce an RD movie from them? And from that movie, could one image be colourised using a scheme similar to the one used in his 'rugged mountains on the Sun' fave?

Jupiter has, of course, many persistent features, some more or less stable over several centuries (e.g. the Great Red Spot). When Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit it, there were many features which persisted, with changes, over several Jovian days. I for one would be curious to know what a suitably colourised RD movie of Jupiter would look like.

 

[DSo]

And you guys want to have a civil dialog?

Let’s dialogue about the word dialogue …

A dialogue is not a situation where posters all bow down and just accept what you say as the truth.

A dialogue is a two way street. And in this case that includes YOU addressing the valid concerns that others have expressed with your idea. Namely,

• An iron shell for the sun violates the laws of thermodynamics. If you want a dialogue in this forum, please address this issue …

• It has been shown by a particular poster that the sun’s photosphere is opaque after a few meters is you assume anything resembling the composition of the sun in the SSM. You claim that you can see thru 1000’s of km’s of the photosphere because the sun’s composition is actually a heretofore unheard of composition (referred to as moplasma). You’ve been asked to provide this composition so that the opacity of moplasma can be estimated. You’ve not provided this composition and run away from the issue. If you want a dialogue in this forum, please address this issue …

I could go on, but this is a good place for you to start doing your share of dialoguing …

 

[dasmiller]

Taking up an idea someone made, earlier in this thread (accurate attribution welcome): if I, or someone else, could find a sequence of images of Jupiter, or Saturn, could GM (or anyone else!) produce an RD movie from them?
<snip>
Jupiter has, of course, many persistent features, some more or less stable over several centuries (e.g. the Great Red Spot).

In the interest of feeding my ego, I'll assume that it was me: Post 404