Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Tim Thompson]

Betting with Mozina III

There have been many provocative posts here by many. ...

No doubt rules requiring a civilized discussion are a good way to keep things on track; "attack the message, not the messenger". But it is certainly relevant when the message is flawed because the messenger is flawed, and that is exactly the case with Mozina, the messenger is flawed. Just look at what he does. It has been proven that the most fundamental & well established laws of physics are clearly violated by his solar model, but he simply ignores it. Decades of direct observations of the sun prove conclusively that his model is wrong, but he simply ignores it. Even when it is pointed out to him that his "gap", "proving" that the transition region & chromosphere are under the photosphere, is nothing but an artifact of image processing, his only response is "that's wrong". For whatever reason, Mozina is not able to deal in any way with the concept of being wrong; he can't & won't live with it at all.

Like I said before, replying to Mozina ...

Am I going to bet with you? Not a chance. Your "analysis" of the SDO images up to this point has been exceptionally stupid. I predict that it will continue to be equally stupid in the future. Just as you wildly misinterpret the SDO images today, so will you wildly misinterpret the SDO images in the future. You will see some fuzzy color somewhere in some image, wildly misinterpret it, and declare yourself the winner and the standard theory dead (as you have in fact done already several times with an equivalent level of stupidity). Since we know in advance that you will claim to have "won" the bet, quite regardless of what is actually in the images, why would anyone bother to bet with you?

No science, no image, no failed prediction, nothing can alter Mozina's fixed conviction. I don't do this for him, that's pointless, I do it for 2 reasons. First, I learn quite a bit myself crafting responses to various bizarre claims, and I don't mind learning. Second, I like to think I provide a counter point to Mozina's point, for all those "lurkers" out there, and anybody else.

 

[GeeMack]

No science, no image, no failed prediction, nothing can alter Mozina's fixed conviction. I don't do this for him, that's pointless, I do it for 2 reasons. First, I learn quite a bit myself crafting responses to various bizarre claims, and I don't mind learning. Second, I like to think I provide a counter point to Mozina's point, for all those "lurkers" out there, and anybody else.

I've been reading your material online since at least 2005 when I first encountered some of the Electric Universe cranks. Your input here, like your reports elsewhere online, is focused, organized, and thorough. Thanks, sir, for giving your time and attention to these discussions.

 

[dlorde]

I don't do this for him, that's pointless, I do it for 2 reasons. First, I learn quite a bit myself crafting responses to various bizarre claims, and I don't mind learning. Second, I like to think I provide a counter point to Mozina's point, for all those "lurkers" out there, and anybody else.

This lurker would like to thank you for your exceptionally educational and entertaining contributions.

 

[GlennB]

And, for your amusement, a humorous rant from another forum where the poster describes what it's like to engage in the kind of debate you folks have been having with MM (some of you might have read it via the "wind cart" thread. It cracked me up

A taste, (the name is edited) :

You want a tennis analogy? OK. If I was playing tennis against <MM> , it's like this. I'm waiting for him to play tennis. You know, according to rules that would be recognised as tennis somewhere else on Earth. So far he's been playing with a piece of chalk in his pocket and several times drawn new lines when my shot was in and pronounced it out. We're having a long argument about lines, which he swears he can draw anywhere and they don't have to be the shortest distance from one place to another......

linky

 

[GeeMack]

If it doesn't show what I think it shows then my theory is falsified! What more do you want? I can only stick my neck out so many times in hope that you might actually lop it off and get it over with. Unfortunately for you there is a green 4800km problem in your theory in just the first round of first light SDO images. The SSM will not survive SDO.

And from over four years ago...

[Skeptic Friends Network]: I hear you on that point. I've already stuck my neck *WAY* out on a limb with the STEREO program. I'm betting the farm that they'll "discover" that the 171A, 195A, and 284A image originate *underneath* the photosphere, not above it. That's a real falsification mechanism that I'll accept as a viable way to determine which "interpretation" is accurate, and there should not be much room for error. I'm going to pay close attention to that data, I assure you. I'm interesting in both proving my case and also in falsifying it as well.

Unbelievable.

 

[nescafe]

And from over four years ago...

<from SFN>

Unbelievable.

Watching y'all tear MM apart over at SFN was one of the reasons I originally joined it. That series of threads was epic.

 

[ben m]

And from over four years ago...

And let's not forget a week or two ago:

I have tried and tried and tried to get a useful measurement out of SOHO and STEREO that was definitive, but the resolution was simply not good enough IMO. In SDO however PS, there's no way to miss the problem.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Well in my opinion, MM does have a vivid imagination and would have done well in the stone age spurring Neanderthals on to out of the box thinking.

That seems to be a timeless skill Skqinty! I've been trying to get these guys to think outside SSM box for years now.

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre6455bw-us-neanderthals-genes/

He also has incredible stamina and the hide of a rhinocerous.

Pointed barbs and poison tipped arrows have no effect on him.
I am trying to say something good about him mind you.

Why thanks. You got that part pegged. I can dish it out pretty good too, but alas that always seems to get me in trouble.

 

[Michael Mozina]

No doubt rules requiring a civilized discussion are a good way to keep things on track; "attack the message, not the messenger". But......

You just couldn't help yourself.

It has been proven that the most fundamental & well established laws of physics are clearly violated by his solar model, but he simply ignores it.

You have that backwards. You have consistently failed to judge this solar model based on it's specifications. The irony of course is that it was the SSM that has been shown to be in violation of the laws of physics, not my model. My model "predicts" light can come up and through a highly ionized atmosphere. It's your solar model that flunked the physics test.

Decades of direct observations of the sun prove conclusively that his model is wrong, but he simply ignores it.

Decades of limited resolution and capability just got overturned in SDO images Tim. You seem to be ignoring the images entirely. LMSAL put the transition region in the wrong place Tim, just as I've said now for 5 years.

Even when it is pointed out to him that his "gap", "proving" that the transition region & chromosphere are under the photosphere, is nothing but an artifact of image processing, his only response is "that's wrong".

It is wrong, ridiculously wrong in fact.

http://aia.lmsal.com/public/firstlight.html
http://aia.lmsal.com/public/firstlight/20100408_044515/f_211_193_171.jpg
http://aia.lmsal.com/public/firstlight/20100408_013015/f_094_335_193.jpg
http://aia.lmsal.com/public/firstlight/20100408_013015/f0193.gif

I defy you to find any iron ion wavelength in SDO that doesn't have a bright horizon line, and underneath of that bright line, an opaque limb. In fact I defy you to find any TRACE high resolution image of the limb that doesn't also show that same "feature". That is not an "artifact" Tim, it's in *EVERY* iron ion limb image of the sun.

No science, no image, no failed prediction, nothing can alter Mozina's fixed conviction.

False again. If that opaque limb wasn't 4800Km under the chromosphere, that would have done it. If that RD technique I suggested fails, that too would falsify the theory. There are any number of visual ways to falsify this theory and evidently no visual ways to falsify the SSM because that "transition region" is definitely in the wrong location to be congruent with the SSM theory. That transition region denoted by the limb dimming is located under the chromosphere, not inside of it, just as my solar theory predicts. This electric solar theory also predict that the outline of the RD image will appear along that limb dimmed region in pretty much all the iron ion wavelenths. I'm a wee worried about 94A just because of the interference issue, but even that will probably work out exactly the same.

 

[Michael Mozina]

And from over four years ago...

Unbelievable.

I was disappointed to be sure. There simply was not the resolution necessary IMO to make a convincing case. Thanks to SDO that has all changed.

 

[phunk]

I defy you to find any iron ion wavelength in SDO that doesn't have a bright horizon line, and underneath of that bright line, an opaque limb.

How does that differ from the SSM? And how does an opaque limb fit into your theory that you can see through the photosphere?

 

[Michael Mozina]

I've asked Michael many times over the years why he doesn't get someone with some math skills to help, since he clearly must know he lacks those capabilities himself.

What are you talking about? I had no trouble at all coming up with the size of the disk. I had to pay our dear Mr. Spock to help *YOU* come with with a circumference of your pie chart and you *STILL* won't produce the diameter! Since I can’t get a single one of you to come up with any other numerical predictions, I am personally going to stake out the 1201KM region +- 1200Km region *above* the photosphere since that would be the most logical region for the disk to appear based on LMSAL’s claim. If I get hit with that particular "prediction", I least I know that *I* was the one that put my own theory out of it’s misery since none of you seem willing to do it for me via quantified physics. I don’t need your help to figure that number out on my own. Coming up with numbers seems to be your problem, not mine.

 

[GeeMack]

False again. If that opaque limb wasn't 4800Km under the chromosphere, that would have done it. If that RD technique I suggested fails, that too would falsify the theory. There are any number of visual ways to falsify this theory and evidently no visual ways to falsify the SSM because that "transition region" is definitely in the wrong location to be congruent with the SSM theory. That transition region denoted by the limb dimming is located under the chromosphere, not inside of it, just as my solar theory predicts. This electric solar theory also predict that the outline of the RD image will appear along that limb dimmed region in pretty much all the iron ion wavelenths. I'm a wee worried about 94A just because of the interference issue, but even that will probably work out exactly the same.

Just in case there are any newbies or lurkers here, Michael's argument about running difference images supporting his crackpot conjecture is simply false. They don't. And when he claims they do, he's being dishonest. A running difference graph is just a graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations.

Remember, Michael's qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged and he has been unable to demonstrate that he has any such qualifications. His qualifications to understand math at a level necessary to add and subtract two digit numbers has been challenged, too. He has also been unable to demonstrate that he possesses those qualifications.

 

[Michael Mozina]

You are being totally ambiguous. How much longer? What cadence?

Please go back to your friends in the SDO program and tell them that the limb line dimming "feature" of the transition region is not and cannot be any sort of image “artifact” in the 171A wavelength or other iron ion wavelengths related to SDO or TRACE. That limb dimming and opacity (your definition) appears in every single limb image. If they disagree with me, please have them produce for us a limb line image in 171A from TRACE or from SDO that shows no sign of limb line dimming along the horizon.

Better yet, have your friends at SDO go round up the software that was used to create this image:

Have them apply that same software technique to the SDO 171A images and overlay the chromosphere on that image. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Directly related how?

The iron from the surface all originates from the same place. The various ionization states are simply related to the current flow inside the loops. Since all the iron originates from that opaque limb dimming region, all the iron ion RD images will outline that 4800km region, no the interior of the chromosphere.

Nobody else here is making a crackpot claim.

You claim to want a civil conversation, but there you go right back to the 'crackpot in every post' routine. Hoy. Who taught you the term "civil conversation" anyway?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Remember, Michael's qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged....

Not by you they haven't. You never put any numerical teeth into anything you've ever posted.

 

[GeeMack]

What are you talking about? I had no trouble at all coming up with the size of the disk. I had to pay our dear Mr. Spock to help *YOU* come with with a diameter of your pie chart.

No lying allowed, Michael. Nobody in this discussion has come up with a diameter of a pie chart.

Since I can’t get a single one of you to come up with any other numerical predictions, I am personally going to stake out the 1201KM region +- 1200Km region *above* the photosphere since that would be the most logical region for the disk to appear based on LMSAL’s claim. If I get hit with that particular "prediction", I least I know that *I* was the one that put my own theory out of it’s misery since none of you seem willing to do it for me via quantified physics. I don’t need your help to figure that number out on my own. Coming up with numbers seems to be your problem, not mine.

Your argument here is more incoherent babbling. Piece by piece, stake out what claim for what reason? Can you define what you mean by disk? What the hell is LMSAL's claim? What do you mean by "hit"? Like, if you see something that isn't there as you do with all the other solar imagery you stare at? Oh, you don't have a theory. It's a conjecture, a guess, based on grade school looks-like-a-bunny misunderstanding of a simple optical illusion. And you have claimed before that this-or-that would put your crackpot conjecture to rest. When this-or-that comes to show just how miserably failed your argument is, you continue babbling your argument from incredulity and ignorance. Nobody believes you'll accept anything as a falsification, because you've posed the same kind of dishonest arguments in the past.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Just in case there are any newbies or lurkers here, Michael's argument about running difference images supporting his crackpot conjecture is simply false. They don't. And when he claims they do, he's being dishonest.

You call that civil? You and I have a strong disagreement about what it means, but I'm not "dishonest" and I'm really trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt too. At worst case one of us has lots of conviction and is simply wrong. One test will tell.

Remember, Michael's qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged......

Not in an honest scientific way with real numbers. Care to give it a whirl?

 

[Michael Mozina]

No lying allowed, Michael.

That's a civil sentence in your opinion? The only one lying is the one that failed to put numbers on the table when it became crunch time. I put my numbers up. Did you?

Nobody in this discussion has come up with a diameter of a pie chart.

That's because you are afraid to come up with any numbers. If you were not afraid, you would put up your diameter and let history decide. You'd rather smear me on personal level instead. The only one acting dishonestly is you. I have made my next prediction. I've told you how to test it. I've been specific about how it will line up with the limb dimming feature of the original images and it will be consistently 4800Km inside the chromosphere, +- 1200KM. What were your numbers again?

 

[GeeMack]

Please go back to your friends in the SDO program and tell them that the limb line dimming "feature" of the transition region is not and cannot be any sort of image “artifact” in the 171A wavelength or other iron ion wavelengths related to SDO or TRACE. That limb dimming and opacity (your definition) appears in every single limb image. If they disagree with me, please have them produce for us a limb line image in 171A from TRACE or from SDO that shows no sign of limb line dimming along the horizon.

Better yet, have your friends at SDO go round up the software that was used to create this image:

[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/171surfaceshotsmall.JPG[/qimg]

Have them apply that same software technique to the SDO 171A images and overlay the chromosphere on that image. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Your qualifications to understand solar imagery of any sort have been challenged and you have been unwilling and/or unable to demonstrate that you are so qualified. Your qualifications to understand solar science terminology have been challenged, also, and you haven't been able to demonstrate that you have any qualifications in that area. Your use of terms like "limb dimming", "transition region", "iron ion wavelengths", and "opacity" is different than the way they might be used by legitimate astrophysicists. And you have yet to define your use of them in an unambiguous way.

The iron from the surface all originates from the same place. The various ionization states are simply related to the current flow inside the loops. Since all the iron originates from that opaque limb dimming region, all the iron ion RD images will outline that 4800km region, no the interior of the chromosphere.

There is no iron on the surface in the way you believe it to be. There is no current flow inside the loops in the way that you believe it to be. Your qualification to understand limb darkening has been challenged and you haven't been able to show that you are qualified to understand it. And nothing in a running difference image shows anything except a graphical representation of a series of mathematical computations. But your qualifications to understand calculation of two digit numbers has been challenged, and you haven't been able to demonstrate that you are qualified to do so.

You claim to want a civil conversation, but there you go right back to the 'crackpot in every post' routine. Hoy. Who taught you the term "civil conversation" anyway?

Your claim is by definition a crackpot conjecture.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Your qualifications to understand solar imagery of any sort have been challenged ......

You have never "challenged" me in an open, honest scientific way with real numbers. Honest men do things the honest way. I put up my honest attempt at coming up with an honest number. Did you?

Your claim is by definition a crackpot conjecture.

You want 'civil' conversation, yet you are incapable of posting a single post without the term 'crackpot' or 'crank' or some other put down in your post. Is that really "civil' conversation in your mind? Are you really that deluded?