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Translation. Or not.

HawaiiBigSis said:
Isn't there a sense in the word neger that means "black"? My understanding always was that he had very dark skin, and American connotations aside, it seemed very accurately descriptive. But maybe I'm just missing something; I am rather difficult to offend.
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Yes, you are absolutely right, neger is the same as negroe, from niger (latin), meaning black. Pippi's father was white, and he was the king of a South Sea Island, so I don't really know why he was called negerkung (negroe king) in the books about Pippi Longstocking. Strange, but I think there used to be an exotic and extravagant feel to that word here in Sweden; I can remember reading Pippi when I was a child, and that was the feeling I got.

Not the feeling you get these days, however...

Which only goes to show how right you are, HawaiiBigSis, about changing words! Languages are alive, and I love that about them:)

Even if it makes translation an even more difficult business:p
 
Helen said:
You always need to read. Even in Crete. You may do it in between the trekking and the swimming, or in between the Minoan palace visiting and the wine drinking in restaurants at night. But you always need to read!
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Really? I'm different. I love to read, but I often find that I have brought a book, one I really wanted to read, to an interesting place, and when the trip is over, I hardly had it open. Seems the world around me tends to steal my attention.

Hans
 
Helen said:
*snip*

Which only goes to show how right you are, HawaiiBigSis, about changing words! Languages are alive, and I love that about them:)

Even if it makes translation an even more difficult business:p
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Right! And the translator has to decide, if the work to be translated has a certain age: Should it be translated to a language compatible with the era of writing, or to modern language. In the latter case, you need to take modern connotations into account (like with negro). Or you can choose the language of the author's time (with all the caveats involved in that) and leave it to the reader to put on the proper frame of mind.

Hans
 
HawaiiBigSis said:
Isn't there a sense in the word neger that means "black"? My understanding always was that he had very dark skin, and American connotations aside, it seemed very accurately descriptive. But maybe I'm just missing something; I am rather difficult to offend.
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I think the 'neger' is more a description of the exotic culture. AFAIK, Sweden, unlike Denmark, was never directly involved in the trade of African slaves, and at the time the Pippi books were written, there was little knowledge in Scandinavia about the black/white issues. In Pippi Longstocking's Sweden 'neger' simply denoted an exotic person.

I don't think Ephraim Longstocking was dark-skinned himself; after all, his daughter is described as the archetypal redhead, freckles, temper and all. I know that tends to jump generations, still.....

Hans
 
Okay, my memory of the stories was different -- admittedly it's been too many decades since I read them.

I'll just go back into my corner over here... :boxedin:
 
HawaiiBigSis said:
Okay, my memory of the stories was different -- admittedly it's been too many decades since I read them.

I'll just go back into my corner over here... :boxedin:
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Actually, I think that is the beauty of good literature: It induces us to flesh out the text with our own visuals. And a comfort forthe trnaslator; as long as it gives good visuals, exactly which ones is not that important.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Actually, I think that is the beauty of good literature: It induces us to flesh out the text with our own visuals. And a comfort forthe trnaslator; as long as it gives good visuals, exactly which ones is not that important.

Hans
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I was just going to answer something along those lines as well; how we all have our own images for the really good stories. "Gives good visuals" sounds faintly naughty, but that's exactly it!

So don't hide in the corner, a BigSis is always good to have around, even if she doesn't remember every single, tiny detail of Pippi Longstocking;)
 
MRC_Hans said:
Right! And the translator has to decide, if the work to be translated has a certain age: Should it be translated to a language compatible with the era of writing, or to modern language. In the latter case, you need to take modern connotations into account (like with negro). Or you can choose the language of the author's time (with all the caveats involved in that) and leave it to the reader to put on the proper frame of mind.

Hans
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Now this is really interesting. And difficult! Unless it is old enough that you really cannot produce a credible version of the language of that time. Then it becomes a bit easier. But only a bit, because then you need to find a level where you do not violate the original by being too modern...

And then there's that other question, of course: What is old enough?

Oh dear. I think I want to be a gardener instead.
 
Helen said:
I was just going to answer something along those lines as well; how we all have our own images for the really good stories. "Gives good visuals" sounds faintly naughty, but that's exactly it!
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Well, they ARE sometimes naughty visuals, depending on the book.

Hans
 
Helen said:
Now this is really interesting. And difficult! Unless it is old enough that you really cannot produce a credible version of the language of that time. Then it becomes a bit easier. But only a bit, because then you need to find a level where you do not violate the original by being too modern...

And then there's that other question, of course: What is old enough?

Oh dear. I think I want to be a gardener instead.
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Actually not that old. You will soon get to a point where the archaic language takes the attention away from the story. In such cases, even reprints in the original language may need some updating.

However, IMHO, good translation is an art not really inferior to authorship, so one must leave the translator considerable artistic freedom.

Hans
 
Helen said:
And not always just depending on the book, either... "For filth, I'm glad to say, is in the mind of the beholder", Tom Lehrer. Not that I would know anything about that, personally, of course:p
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Not? I hope you are too modest there. Much of the fun in life starts where the filth starts ;).

Yes, I have sometimes had some visuals that might not be the original idea of the author. Not much from Astrid Lindgreen, though. Except, ... imagining a post puberty Pippi could ..... :eye-poppi:covereyes

Hans
 
Astrid Lindgren never did much for me in that way. But since I was raised on bed time stories about Greek and Norse gods, musketeers and cowboys and Indians, I didn't need her to, either:blush:

I agree that really good translation is an art in itself. Some translations of poetry, often by other poets, that I've come across are not in any way inferior to the original. But it takes special talent to be able to do that, to take that artistic freedom, and still retain the feel of the original.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Actually, I think that is the beauty of good literature: It induces us to flesh out the text with our own visuals. And a comfort forthe trnaslator; as long as it gives good visuals, exactly which ones is not that important.

Hans
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You're quite right, MRC_Hans, that is most of why I prefer to read a book over see a movie. Somehow the casting almost never matches what I saw in my mind's eye when I read the book, never mind the butchering necessary to bring the story to film.

Helen said:
I was just going to answer something along those lines as well; how we all have our own images for the really good stories. "Gives good visuals" sounds faintly naughty, but that's exactly it!

So don't hide in the corner, a BigSis is always good to have around, even if she doesn't remember every single, tiny detail of Pippi Longstocking;)
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I think I believed when I read the stories that he was the king of the South Seas people, and not necessarily a dark-skinned south seas person himself. How could he be? He was Scandinavian. Plus, since the stories were from Pippi's point of view anyway, most everything she said was suspect.
 
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