Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[capealadin]

Hi, Christianahannah: I don,t know if anything was said about Amanda naming Patrick. As to why naming Patrick at the time of Raff's throwing Amanda under the bus? The police wanted to know who the message was to. Naming Rudi was out of the question. The police were suspicious of the phrase " See you Later" which could have meant to them: Meeting up. Amanda had to think fast. Was there an underlying resentment towards Patrick for demoting her, and employing Meredith in some fashion at the bar? Nobody knows, that,s obvious. But, I believe Amanda needed to talk to Raff, and FAST. Obvioulsly, when one is under pressure, and everything is falling to pieces, it is hard to keep your thoughts together. nd if Amanda had imagined this was going to be a walk in the park, and perhaps thinking along the same lines as Mary H, and the police were thinking about her in a sexual manner, well, when it became obvious they they didn,t fancy her, and in fact, were getting frustrated with her answers and evasions, she DID get confused, and the reality of Raff,s statements, get really scared. And of course, her confusion as to Patrick and the memories were confused. Because, HE WASN,T THERE, and she wasn,t with him. She was with Raff and Rudi. Hard to keep your story straight, when it,s changing as to your alibis. And trying to remember everything you,ve agreed on, with disbelief all around you.Yeah, confusing, and scary.

 

[capealadin]

El Buscator: I am not familiar at all as to identifying fecal matter. Or if it can be tested as to the owner. But, as Rudi WAS one of the killers, she would have to keep him out of it. Raff she could talk to and straighten out the alibis. Rudi, no. He was in Germany, and didn,t own a phone.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Well, Juror, if one goes with the hypothetical, If they only charged Rudi with the crime, he probably would have incriminated Raff and Amanda, (which he HAS subsequently done). Evidence would in the meantime have been collected.

He would have never thought to incriminate Amanda and Raffaele. Rudy barely knew Amanda and he didn't know Raffaele at all.

When all of the evidence was collected, it pointed to Rudy Guede.

 

[capealadin]

Well, not ALL the evidence, Bruce. And, not only did Rudi think of incriminating Amanda and Raffaele, he DID.!! Barely knew Rudi?? It has been established that she had met him on a number of occasions. Raffaele she only knew for 6 days. How well did Meredith know Rudi? Rudi hardly knew Meredith better than he knew Amanda. 47 wounds seems like overkill to me. Especially from one person.

 

[bucketoftea]

Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yes, if we're to believe the FAO the police were determined to place the blame on Patrick by making Amanda spit out his name then suddenly decided to frame Amanda.

Amanda lied an innocent man into jail. You can spin it you can ignore it but it's the elephant in the room.
She had several opportunities to apologize and I am not aware that she did so.
Is it her position that it was somehow not her fault?
* * * * *
I've tried to put myself in the shoes of someone who was coerced by the police to finger someone. I really think I'd be frantic to explain to him that it wasn't really me blaming him. I'd still be very very sorry. I would *succinctly* withdraw the earlier statement.

Then I put myself in the position of someone who blamed another as a means to escape the terrible consequences of my actions. I would prevaricate and wait, still hoping to leave the door open for the chance he might in fact take the fall. ...if lucky.

 

[bucketoftea]

El Buscator: I am not familiar at all as to identifying fecal matter. Or if it can be tested as to the owner. But, as Rudi WAS one of the killers, she would have to keep him out of it. Raff she could talk to and straighten out the alibis. Rudi, no. He was in Germany, and didn,t own a phone.

The bacteria in fecal matter degrades any DNA pretty quickly. They actually retrieved Rudi's DNA from the toilet paper.

 

[stilicho]

As soon as they got Amanda to tell them what they wanted to hear, they went out and arrested Patrick Lumumba with no further questions asked. As it turned out, Patrick was innocent.

Can you tell us exactly how this elaborate conspiracy was supposed to have worked? If you can, you might be able to win the JREF MDC.

You and Mary_H (among many many others) continue to claim that the Perugia authorities were only interested in somehow tricking a young woman into naming a person who "they wanted to hear", even though he turned out to be innocent.

Can you provide the exact mechanism? You may use available facts. Include the fact that AK and RS were interviewed several times in the four days following Meredith's slaying while Patrick was never questioned at all. They tapped the pair's phones but not Patrick's.

How on earth did they "want to hear" about Patrick when they had never even considered him to be a witness?

While we're on the subject of sheer speculation, my own interpretation of the brief questioning--later inadmissible--is that Knox was expected to turn on Sollecito since they had already told her that he didn't back up her alibi. Either that or that she would lawyer up. Sollecito had turned on her and lawyered up. Why do you think they wouldn't have assumed she'd do exactly the same thing?

The reason her statements were declared inadmissible had nothing to do with the tenor of the questioning session. It was because Amanda had inadvertently blurted out her own involvement in the murder--at the cottage!--with Patrick!! That was the point at which the interview ceased. It had to be stopped immediately because she'd just crossed the line from witness to suspect.

I completely believe her when she says she was confused and frustrated. Who wouldn't be after finding out that their alibi buddy had turned on them?

This is really simple stuff, Bruce.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Well, not ALL the evidence, Bruce. And, not only did Rudi think of incriminating Amanda and Raffaele, he DID.!! Barely knew Rudi?? It has been established that she had met him on a number of occasions. Raffaele she only knew for 6 days. How well did Meredith know Rudi? Rudi hardly knew Meredith better than he knew Amanda. 47 wounds seems like overkill to me. Especially from one person.

Amanda did not meet Rudy on a number of occasions. She saw him around. When you see someone walking down the street do you consider that meeting someone? Amanda barely knew Rudy. This is a fact.

How long did it take for Rudy to incriminate Amanda and Raffaele? How many different stories did he come up with? He wanted his prison sentence reduced. Rudy incriminating Amanda and Raffeale means nothing.

You are over exaggerating the wounds. This was done in the media so I can't fault you for that. There were 47 areas noted on Meredith's body. The wounds on Meredith along with the evidence in the murder room showed that one person committed the murder.

2 experts testified in court that one person attacked Meredith.

You are missing the point completely. If Amanda had an attorney, none of the questioning would have occurred at the police station. This crime would have been solved using the evidence at the crime scene. That evidence points to Rudy Guede. Rudy would have never dreamed of incriminating Amanda and Raffaele. Where would he have come up with that story?

You and I look at this case much differently. I believe that Amanda and Raffale had nothing to do with the murder. They weren't there.

Rudy didn't know Raffaele, he barely knew Amanda. Why would he have ever dreamed of accusing them?

 

[stilicho]

You are missing the point completely. If Amanda had an attorney, none of the questioning would have occurred at the police station. This crime would have been solved using the evidence at the crime scene. That evidence points to Rudy Guede. Rudy would have never dreamed of incriminating Amanda and Raffaele. Where would he have come up with that story?

Each of the accused should have had an attorney. We all agreed on that more than 5,000 posts ago. It should have been evident to all three especially after the first day of investigation--when none of the other flatmates were called in for a follow-up.

Could have, should have, would have, though. They didn't get good advice from their family members or they ignored it. We've been through that before.

If we want to speculate about what would have happened if they said nothing at all, that's OK. But it isn't what happened. We can logically assume that Amanda even knew something about the mixed sources of DNA in the bathroom before her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email.

All they could have done, through complete silence, is make the investigation a little tougher. Let's go a step further and even suggest that they foolishly returned to the cottage on 02 NOV 2007. They never should have gone there to "guide" the investigation. They should have let someone else discover the whole scene and rolled the dice. Frankly, they should have just driven off to Gubbio together in the morning so they wouldn't have even been in town.

They didn't. Oh well.

 

[capealadin]

Bruce, In Rudi,s conversation, he says he had to step in when Meredith and Amanda had a previous argument. You don,t do that with a stranger. I agree Amanda should have had an attorney. I also said I don,t know if that would have made her a suspect at that time, and it would have then not been possible to straighten out their alibis. Rudi incriminated Amanda and Raff when he saw he was being out to be the sole killer. So, he,s a rat, as well as a murderer. Incriminating Amanda means nothing? Yep, that,s why your stance on Amanda incriminating Patrick means nothing. EXCEPT, oh, Patrick was innocent, And Amanda and Raff, quilty. Why would Rudi dream of incriminating Amanda and Raff? I quess the police shouted at him, and berated him for not flushing, and confused him, and made him really scared. And interrogated him for 53 hours. They shouted at him to imagine, and demanded how long he had known Amanda. It was the police who made him do it.

 

[stilicho]

The initial forensic evidence from the murder room would come back pointing to Rudy and not A & R. So would Raff's apartment have been searched and would we have the double DNA knife? The bra clasp did not enter the picture until much later and potentially viewed differently. Rudy would have been arrested with his silly story and that would have been it.

The initial evidence would point to someone who lived in the cottage, Juror. The locked door is rarely discussed but it's extremely rare to find a body locked inside a room without someone from that home being involved.

That would mean everyone who lived there would be initially questioned about their whereabouts. No exceptions. So they would have needed lawyers on the very first day (02 NOV 2007). That's how quickly the police narrowed it down to AK. RS simply involved himself by being there when the Polizia arrived and offering himself as her alibi. Rookie mistake.

The forensics results probably wouldn't have done much, initially, to target Rudy unless they concluded instantly that there had been a real break-in.

 

[shuttlt]

He would have never thought to incriminate Amanda and Raffaele. Rudy barely knew Amanda and he didn't know Raffaele at all.

Assuming Amanda and Raffaele are innocent, I'm sure you are right. It does make the debate rather difficult if you are unwilling to drop Amanda and Raffaele's innocence from your list of implicit assumptions. Wouldn't it be better to do our best to argue where we can from common assumptions?

Do we have anybody else's word for how well they knew one another, by the way?

When all of the evidence was collected, it pointed to Rudy Guede.

If you say so.

 

[stilicho]

Bruce, In Rudi,s conversation, he says he had to step in when Meredith and Amanda had a previous argument.

Cite?

I don't recall Rudy having ever testified that Amanda was in the cottage when the murder occurred. If you can cite the passages then we would all be on the same page here.

 

[capealadin]

Stillicho: Sorry for the misuderstanding. Rudi had told a friend that he had to step in on another occasion when Meredith and Amanda were having an argument. Will check the source. Time, please

 

[shuttlt]

You are missing the point completely. If Amanda had an attorney, none of the questioning would have occurred at the police station. This crime would have been solved using the evidence at the crime scene. That evidence points to Rudy Guede. Rudy would have never dreamed of incriminating Amanda and Raffaele. Where would he have come up with that story?

You and I look at this case much differently. I believe that Amanda and Raffale had nothing to do with the murder. They weren't there.

Rudy didn't know Raffaele, he barely knew Amanda. Why would he have ever dreamed of accusing them?

Bruce, this is tiresome, you know perfectly well why people think he might have accused them. Let's debate something rather than all this trollish wide eyed innocent ignorance. He might have "dreamed of accusing them" IF they were involved in the murder with him. You know perfectly well also that the people you are debating with don't consider Amanda and Raffaele's innocence as a fact.

 

[shuttlt]

Each of the accused should have had an attorney. We all agreed on that more than 5,000 posts ago. It should have been evident to all three especially after the first day of investigation--when none of the other flatmates were called in for a follow-up.

I thought Laura was interviewed/interrogated 6 times? Did only the first time happen during this crucial period?

 

[shuttlt]

All they could have done, through complete silence, is make the investigation a little tougher. Let's go a step further and even suggest that they foolishly returned to the cottage on 02 NOV 2007. They never should have gone there to "guide" the investigation. They should have let someone else discover the whole scene and rolled the dice. Frankly, they should have just driven off to Gubbio together in the morning so they wouldn't have even been in town.

If the killer had burned the house down there would have been very little evidence at all and perhaps none of them would be in prison.

 

[RWVBWL]

I find this an interesting hypothetical.

I would venture all would agree that if she had an attorney, the accusation against Patrick would not have happened and also her gift statement would not exist.

The initial forensic evidence from the murder room would come back pointing to Rudy and not A & R. So would Raff's apartment have been searched and would we have the double DNA knife? The bra clasp did not enter the picture until much later and potentially viewed differently. Rudy would have been arrested with his silly story and that would have been it.

Thoughts?

Hi Juror,
If the arrests had gone down the way you propose, Guede might have had a greater incentive to turn against any partners, if he had one. I am speaking of the unknown person that Miss Formica saw running away that night that she testified in court was not Rudy Guede. Also the person that Mr. Aessi recently mentions about that Mr. Sollecito's defense plans to bring up at appeal.

From a street person's point of view, Amanda Knox does not appear whatsoever to be "hard", she is simply a college age gal, living away from her parents while overseas, studying, working, dating, drinking, experimenting with pot, and her sexuality. In other words, simply finding herself.
There is KNOW WAY, in my opinion, that any "hard" core street sauvy person, who was involved in a murder, their first one at that, would EVER freely try to help the cops, day after day, WITHOUT an attorney. Capiche?
RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

Opps,
I mean NO WAY!
Sorry!
__________________________________________________________________________

"From a street person's point of view, Amanda Knox does not appear whatsoever to be "hard", she is simply a college age gal, living away from her parents while overseas, studying, working, dating, drinking, experimenting with pot, and her sexuality. In other words, simply finding herself.
There is KNOW WAY, in my opinion, that any "hard" core street sauvy person, who was involved in a murder, their first one at that, would EVER freely try to help the cops, day after day, WITHOUT an attorney. Capiche? "
RWVBWL

 

[Mary_H]

Interesting reading the last 8 hours. We have a discussion of Amanda naming her innocent employer as the murderer of her housemate, after being asked again and again about her text messages then all of the sudden Mary H cries for help on the board, Bruce arrives and the topic changes......

I see no evidence here of a cry for help.