Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[shuttlt]

The problem is, a certain piece of data cannot only be released to only the defence. Any data released must be released to all parties (that includes legal teams representing all the victims). Once that happens, the state is no longer in control of that information not being released/leaked to the public and thereby prejudicing the accused. Therefore, the legal solution of the Italian law is to rule they can't be released to anyone.

Well, Bruce has a copy of her inadmissable statement. Bits of all the statements have gotten out. Would an inadmissable audio tape/video be more prejudicial than the statement? If they want to keep a lid on it, they could always control the circumstances under which the lawyers could view/listen to the tape and not hand out copies.

But, if you want a more detailed explanation on the matter, I recommend you post a question on truejustice.org addressed to 'Commissario Montalbano'. He's an Italian lawyer (and a handy one to have around since he also speaks English). As we speak, he's helping Clander and Yummi with the translation on the Massei Report, ensuring that all the legalise has been translated correctly.

Thanks. By the way, how close are we to a releasable copy of the report?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Well, Bruce has a copy of her inadmissable statement. Bits of all the statements have gotten out. Would an inadmissable audio tape/video be more prejudicial than the statement? If they want to keep a lid on it, they could always control the circumstances under which the lawyers could view/listen to the tape and not hand out copies.

If so, why doesn't he post it up? And which one does he claim to have...the 1:45 or the 5:45 voluntary statement?

Thanks. By the way, how close are we to a releasable copy of the report?

I can't give an ETA on that. We changed what we were originally going to do (a translation then proofread) to also getting numerous Italians and experts (legal, genetic etc) to come in and go over it to make sure all the legal and scientific terminology is correct. We are also going to now add an explanatory introduction, glossary and footnotes. This is going to be a fully professional multi-discipline translation. It's ambitious. This of course has greatly raised the volume of work and therefore increased the time frame. But, can I get away with saying 'soon'?

 

[Matthew Best]

But hey, it's okay Mathew, Amanda's still alive and you can still imagine her late in the evenings while you're lying in bed ...your box of cleanex is still on your bedside table...wink, wink.

Post reported. And welcome to "Ignore".

 

[Fulcanelli]

What 'is' the dog you have in this fight then Matthew?

Interesting that you quote and thereby reproduce the post you're reporting by the way.

 

[shuttlt]

If so, why doesn't he post it up? And which one does he claim to have...the 1:45 or the 5:45 voluntary statement?

The 1:45am statement I believe - it's where all the talk of 30+ police interrogating her comes from, based on the number of signatures. Bruce is really the person who should answer why he won't release it. As I recall it was something along the lines of him feeling people would pick it apart and use it against Amanda in much the same way we have been doing with what we have of Raffaele's statement, and he didn't want this, hence he wasn't going to release it. I think he's right that it would get used against her, and it was at least an honest reason for not handing it over (assuming I have gotten it right). As I said at the time, it would be nice to at least see the portions of it that are purely procedural - the signatures, times and whatever other stuff isn't about what she actually said.

I can't give an ETA on that. We changed what we were originally going to do (a translation then proofread) to also getting numerous Italians and experts (legal, genetic etc) to come in and go over it to make sure all the legal and scientific terminology is correct. We are also going to now add an explanatory introduction, glossary and footnotes. This is going to be a fully professional multi-discipline translation. It's ambitious. This of course has greatly raised the volume of work and therefore increased the time frame. But, can I get away with saying 'soon'?

I wonder how the pro-Amanda version that Bruce mentioned ages ago is coming along.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The 1:45am statement I believe - it's where all the talk of 30+ police interrogating her comes from, based on the number of signatures.

Well it's funny because Amanda claimed she was questioned by 3 - 4 officers.

Bruce is really the person who should answer why he won't release it. As I recall it was something along the lines of him feeling people would pick it apart and use it against Amanda in much the same way we have been doing with what we have of Raffaele's statement, and he didn't want this, hence he wasn't going to release it. I think he's right that it would get used against her,

Obviously he feels then that the verbatum statement won't help her. But isn't that a problem in terms of 'truth'...not wanting to post case information because he feels it may not help her cause and even harm it? That's an admission right there of why they aren't releasing all the information they have and that what they do release is filtered. Another word for that is spin.

I wonder how the pro-Amanda version that Bruce mentioned ages ago is coming along.

It's translated already, they just did it with Google Translate or some other language software. The 'time' is being taken by their having to rearrange all the text that Google garbled out, so that it makes some sort of sense. But trust me when I say, if you Google translate this document, it's wrong and all you will get is an incoherent mess that no amount of editing can rescue. Even many of the actual words will be wrong, for often the meaning of an Italian word is defined by the context in which it's used. Translation software doesn't do 'context'. You might be able to get away with Google Translating the odd short simple paragraph here and there, but that's the best you can hope for and even those must be regarded with great caution. In fact...if they are wise, they will realise doing it that way is a non-starter and either cancel the project, or get a proper professional translation done....but I don't think they have any well enough qualified Italian speakers for that and not enough of them. And even if they did, they would have great trouble getting through the legalese and scientific aspects. It's a mammoth task.

We have 12 people working on that report and that doesn't include peripheral helpers and the number is actually rising.

 

[shuttlt]

Well it's funny because Amanda claimed she was questioned by 3 - 4 officers.

Indeed. In any case, I struggle to imagine 30 officers being present regardless of whether the interrogation was conducted legally, or not.

Obviously he feels then that the verbatum statement won't help her. But isn't that a problem in terms of 'truth'...not wanting to post case information because he feels it may not help her cause and even harm it? That's an admission right there of why they aren't releasing all the information they have and that what they do release is filtered. Another word for that is spin.

I suspect, amongst other things, Bruce would dispute that it is in fact a verbatum statement, would point out that it was in Italian mentioning that Amanda's Italian wasn't so good back then, and would question whether she knew what she was signing. Really though, any response to this should come from Bruce rather than me as I don't want to put words in his mouth. I'm sure I've probably said some stuff as being Bruce's position that in fact isn't. For myself, I would of course be interested to see it.

It's translated already, they just did it with Google Translate or some other language software. The 'time' is being taken by their having to rearrange all the text that Google garbled out, so that it makes some sort of sense. But trust me when I say, if you Google translate this document, it's wrong and all you will get is an incoherent mess that no amount of editing can rescue. Even many of the actual words will be wrong, for often the meaning of an Italian word is defined by the context in which it's used. Translation software doesn't do 'context'. You might be able to get away with Google Translating the odd short simple paragraph here and there, but that's the best you can hope for and even those must be regarded with great caution. In fact...if they are wise, they will realise doing it that way is a non-starter and either cancel the project, or get a proper professional translation done....but I don't think they have any well enough qualified Italian speakers for that and not enough of them. And even if they did, they would have great trouble getting through the legalese and scientific aspects. It's a mammoth task.

We have 12 people working on that report and that doesn't include peripheral helpers and the number is actually rising.

I'd be curious to know the man/woman hours involved to get some idea of how much it would cost to produce in the real world.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I'd be curious to know the man/woman hours involved to get some idea of how much it would cost to produce in the real world.

Well, at some point after the Report is published the sub forum where it's been translated will be made public again so that people will be able to see the whole process that was gone through to translate it, so you'll be able to see. We want it to be as transparent as possible. And I must say, it's been intriguing to watch.

In the real world in cost terms...you'd be talking over $40,000. I don't know the exchange rate, but in European cost it would be over 36,000 Euros before VAT which is 20% abouts and of course, that doesn't include the cost of additional experts (legal, scientific) to check over it. Translate that into $ US (I don't know the rate off the top of my head).

 

[bucketoftea]

I thought someone said Amanda was doing it herself. Probably too busy spreading peace, love and literacy around Capanne

 

[Fulcanelli]

I thought someone said Amanda was doing it herself. Probably too busy spreading peace, love and literacy around Capanne

Apparently. The story goes that she's translating a copy which she plans to give to her parents. Well, she has plenty of time...26 years or so.

 

[Amazer]

I thought someone said Amanda was doing it herself. Probably too busy spreading peace, love and literacy around Capanne

That should keep her occupied for at least the first 4-5 years of her stay in prison.

 

[Amazer]

Well, at some point after the Report is published the sub forum where it's been translated will be made public again so that people will be able to see the whole process that was gone through to translate it, so you'll be able to see. We want it to be as transparent as possible. And I must say, it's been intriguing to watch.

In the real world in cost terms...you'd be talking over $40,000. I don't know the exchange rate, but in European cost it would be over 36,000 Euros before VAT which is 20% abouts and of course, that doesn't include the cost of additional experts (legal, scientific) to check over it. Translate that into $ US (I don't know the rate off the top of my head).

I know it's impolite to ask but how are you funding the translation work? Or is it all voluntary?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I know it's impolite to ask but how are you funding the translation work? Or is it all voluntary?

It's all voluntary. Nobody is being paid a penny and they are all giving up their free time to do it.

 

[RoseMontague]

I have read the entire (Google translated) report and it is a big headache. I can see sitting down with a thesaurus for almost every word and trying to pick out one that makes the most sense but it would be just a guess. Some things just come out silly and even if you did that I don't see how it could be considered accurate. Try it with this section and see for yourself:

AI momento in cui fu rinvenuto il corpo senza vita di Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, nella casa di via della Pergola 7 erano presenti, oltre agli attuali imputati, Romanelli Filomena, la sua amica Paola Grande ed i loro ragazzi: Zaroli Marco e Altieri Luca. Tutti arrivati nella casa verso le ore 13,00 del giorno 2 novembre. Erano anche presenti l'ispettore e l'agente della Polizia postale di Perugia: Battistelli Michele e Marzi Fabio, giunti poco prima delle ore 13,00. La presenza della polizia postale nelle persone dell'ispettore Battistelli e dell'agente Marzi era stata determinata dal rinvenimento, verificatosi qualche ore prima, di un telefono cellulare e quindi di un secondo telefono cellulare nel giardino della casa di Lana Elisabetta sita in Perugia, Via Sperandio. Tale giardino, come peraltro la casa, sono nascosti dagli alberi e si trovano nella zona del Parco S. Angelo a poca distanza dalla casa di Via della Pergola 7: distanza che in macchina avrebbe richiesto pochissimi minuti (2 o 3) ed a piedi 15-20 minuti (v. dichiarazioni di Fiammetta Biscarini, udienza del 6.2.2009) o anche meno (cfr. dichiarazioni del dr. Chiacchiera che ha indicato in 5-7 minuti il tempo occorrente per raggiungere via Sperandio da via della Pergola specificando che si può passare per C.so Garibaldi -che dista da via Sperandio sui 200 metri- o anche per il parco, dichiarazioni dr. Chiacchiera rese all'udienza 27.2.2009, pag. 145).
Era dunque accaduto che la sera dell'I.11.2007 verso le ore 22,00 una persona aveva avvertito Lana Elisabetta di non utilizzare il water dell' abitazione perché c'era una bomba che poteva scoppiare. Di tale telefonata la sig.ra Lana aveva subito notiziato la polizia che si era portata sul posto senza trovare nulla. La sig.ra Lana ed il marito venivano tuttavia invitati a recarsi il giorno successivo presso la Polizia Postale per denunciare la detta telefonata. Mentre l'indomani, appunto il 2 novembre, si preparavano ad uscire per sporgere la denuncia, il figlio Biscarini Alessandro, verso le ore 9 di quel 2 novembre, trovava un telefonino "nel giardino, nello spiazzo davanti casa" (dichiarazioni Biscarini Alessandro, ud. 6.2.2009 pag. 166). Pensando che fosse stato perso da uno degli agenti che erano arrivati la sera prima, la signora Lana Elisabetta telefonò in
Questura e le fu detto di portare tale telefonino alla Polizia postale dove peraltro stava recandosi e dove arrivò, insieme al marito, verso le h.10,15. Il funzionario dr. Bartolozzi, al quale venne consegnato il telefonino, risalì al! proprietaria dello stesso: Filomena Romanelli abitante in Perugia via della Pergola 7.

I am however disappointed with the delay.

 

[shuttlt]

I am however disappointed with the delay.

Ditto. A properly annotated version will be good though. It's better to have it done properly than release it early and have the project lose focus.

 

[tsig]

Interesting reading the last 8 hours. We have a discussion of Amanda naming her innocent employer as the murderer of her housemate, after being asked again and again about her text messages then all of the sudden Mary H cries for help on the board, Bruce arrives and the topic changes......

Yes, if we're to believe the FAO the police were determined to place the blame on Patrick by making Amanda spit out his name then suddenly decided to frame Amanda.

Amanda lied an innocent man into jail. You can spin it you can ignore it but it's the elephant in the room.

 

[shuttlt]

Given that fragments of the diaries may (I intend to imply all probilities between 0 and 1) have been released by the police/prosecutor, have any bits of the 1:45am statement ever surfaced enclosed between quotes, rather than a summary, or someone recalling what was said? I had a nose around on PMF 'In Their Own Words' and couldn't find anything.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, if we're to believe the FAO the police were determined to place the blame on Patrick by making Amanda spit out his name then suddenly decided to frame Amanda.

Amanda lied an innocent man into jail. You can spin it you can ignore it but it's the elephant in the room.

She had several opportunities to apologize and I am not aware that she did so.
Is it her position that it was somehow not her fault?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

She had several opportunities to apologize and I am not aware that she did so.
Is it her position that it was somehow not her fault?

Amanda Wrote: "In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make it clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion."

Amanda was very confused and she was scared. This did not seem to matter to the police. Amanda's illegal interrogation gave them the information they wanted.

As soon as they got Amanda to tell them what they wanted to hear, they went out and arrested Patrick Lumumba with no further questions asked. As it turned out, Patrick was innocent.

Amanda's statements about Patrick were completely unreliable. Amanda tired to explain to the police that her statements were made during a time of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion and she didn't believe them to be true. After all, she was only stating what the Interrogators wanted to hear. At the time, the police simply didn't care. They arrested Patrick anyway. The police are responsible for Patrick Lumumba's imprisonment, not Amanda Knox.

 

[Moss]

She had several opportunities to apologize and I am not aware that she did so.
Is it her position that it was somehow not her fault?

Maybe her defense asked her not to do it. Because an apology might indicate that she at least feels responsible.
I wonder if this part of the story will also get a rerun in the appeal. Then it might be a clever if not very nice move.