Fairtrade Cocoa

[Cain]

My dad used to say "never get into an argument with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you on experience".

That naturally, doesn't apply to you. I just had a compulsion to post it.

Thanks for the warning.


DC writes:

when you have no problems with poor people and kids beeing underpaid for their hard work, well yes then you dont have to feel guilty.

You're wasting your own money, but if it makes you feel better, fine. I hate the smug, self-satisfied people who brag about purchasing products that "were not made from child slave labor." Just don't force your views on me. Let the free-market decide.

 

[DC]

Thanks for the warning.


DC writes:



You're wasting your own money, but if it makes you feel better, fine. I hate the smug, self-satisfied people who brag about purchasing products that "were not made from child slave labor." Just don't force your views on me. Let the free-market decide.

you know why a free market alla Friedman is not working the way Friedman thought it would?

because people like you. A real free market requiers consumers to be aware of the origin and practices of the products he consumes.

I dont see it as waste of my money. i see Chiquita bananas as theft.

 

[Cain]

you know why a free market alla Friedman is not working the way Friedman thought it would?

because people like you. A real free market requiers consumers to be aware of the origin and practices of the products he consumes.

I dont see it as waste of my money. i see Chiquita bananas as theft.

This is completely false. I am rationally ignorant of how my bananas are produced, nor do I know how the pin is made in the factory Adam Smith studied because... who cares? None of that matters. If someone else can create a superior product at the same price, then I will buy it. YOU are acting contrary to a fundamental tenet of a free-market system: consumer self-interest.

But this is capitalism and you're free to choose. I don't mind people buying slavery free goods, it's their damn air of moral superiority that annoys me.

 

[DC]

This is completely false. I am rationally ignorant of how my bananas are produced, nor do I know how the pin is made in the factory Adam Smith studied because... who cares? None of that matters. If someone else can create a superior product at the same price, then I will buy it. YOU are acting contrary to a fundamental tenet of a free-market system: consumer self-interest.

But this is capitalism and you're free to choose. I don't mind people buying slavery free goods, it's their damn air of moral superiority that annoys me.

yeah, children in poor countrys have a choice, they dont go to school because they like to work as hard as their parents, it surely has nothing to do with the parents not beeing able to make enough money to live from it........

how would you even know if they aer free to choose as you are not even interested where they come from.... al that countrs for you is price?
not for me, thanks.

 

[Cain]

yeah, children in poor countrys have a choice, they dont go to school because they like to work as hard as their parents, it surely has nothing to do with the parents not beeing able to make enough money to live from it........

how would you even know if they aer free to choose as you are not even interested where they come from.... al that countrs for you is price?
not for me, thanks.

Is this guy for real? Seriously.

Sorry I don't "care" about eating chocolate, I just do it.

 

[DC]

Is this guy for real? Seriously.

Sorry I don't "care" about eating chocolate, I just do it.

So you dont care that your chocolate was partly made by children that instead of going to school and learn something, have to work all day?

when i buy a product and i have the chioce between a Max Havelaar product and a non fairtrade product, i always choose the Max havelaar product because i know those products enables children to go to school because their parents earn enough to feed the family.

and the product is hardly much more expensive.

my fairtrade bananas cost only 60 cent more per kilo, a price i easy can pay. its not much for me, but its huge for them.

 

[lionking]

Cain,

And I feel the same about meat.

To the OP, can't a decision to pay more for Freetrade chocolate on the understanding that some or what you pay goes towards improving the welfare of African children a be a rational one?

 

[DC]

when it is the same docu i saw from BBC, they also showed children that work on cocoa plantages but never in their live tried chocolate, the reporter gave em chocolate to try, it was the first time in their live they had that luxury.

 

[Cain]

So you dont care that your chocolate was partly made by children that instead of going to school and learn something, have to work all day?

No, I'm what you'd call NEUTRAL. I'd think someone from Switzerland would understand that (and chocolate).

when i buy a product and i have the chioce between a Max Havelaar product and a non fairtrade product, i always choose the Max havelaar product because i know those products enables children to go to school because their parents earn enough to feed the family.

I actually like do-gooders who invest in "socially conscious" companies. Makes it easier to avoid over-valued stocks. Some "moral" aversion to slavery means there's a better chance for a business opportunity. Just don't start banning things.

my fairtrade bananas cost only 60 cent more per kilo, a price i easy can pay. its not much for me, but its huge for them.

And people wonder how socialists put our budgets in the red.

 

[Cain]

Cain,

And I feel the same about meat.

I know you do! Wise move.

To the OP, can't a decision to pay more for Freetrade chocolate on the understanding that some or what you pay goes towards improving the welfare of African children a be a rational one?

Not really. And I think you mean "fair-trade," not free trade.

 

[lionking]

I know you do! Wise move.



Not really. And I think you mean "fair-trade," not free trade.

Freudian slip?

Could you elaborate on "not really"?

 

[DC]

No, I'm what you'd call NEUTRAL. I'd think someone from Switzerland would understand that (and chocolate).



I actually like do-gooders who invest in "socially conscious" companies. Makes it easier to avoid over-valued stocks. Some "moral" aversion to slavery means there's a better chance for a business opportunity. Just don't start banning things.



And people wonder how socialists put our budgets in the red.

you are not neutral.
you took an anti fairtrade stance.

Nobody in this thread said its amoral to buy non fairtrade chocolate.
i know people that dont buy fairtrade, because with 5 children at home they cannot afford it. i have no problem with them at all.

everyone is free to buy it if he wants and can.

you atacked those buying those products and made strange claims.

 

[Cayvmann]

The best thing for everyone involved is to forget where their chocolate comes from. It's taking away time you could spend making money -- creating wealth -- which, like an invisible hand, uplifts us all.

This is obviously not true. Quite apparently it doesn't uplift the slaves, so at best it uplifts a subset of us all.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I think there is some leg pulling going on here.

@ lionking: if I were confident that the labels were truthful (which is the topic of the BBC show you referenced) then the fair trade initiative might get my support. I do not have much confidence in the truthfulness of product labels as niche appeals get made ... the whole "organic" scheme and how that gets manipulated has made me very cynical about all this.

Problem is, the global economy and population growth of the past fifty years has reopened the can of worms once called "the iron law of wages," which is rooted in labor supply and demand, as well as competitive advantage.

How one votes with one's dollars is a non-trivial exercise in research, with sources of variable reliability.

A choice is to stop eating chocolate at all. That seems to concern you as well, as a boycott ripples back to suppliers and producers to joblessness all through the chocolate industry.

Do I want Hershey, Pennsylvania, to hit the skids along with Detroit? My dollar can't target selectively which chocolate producers it does or doesn't reward for it ethics.

DR

 

[DC]

here the public Press and several consumer protection associations do from time to time test the fairtrade producers and their practices. also Max Havelaar themself test and report alot about the producers abroad.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I have been sceptical of Fairtrade since day one, as it sounds like just another politically correct fad with little actual benefit, like organic/locally grown food and the "all natural" marketing slogan. I never really got into reading up on it, and for all I know, it might be the best thing since sliced bread, but yeah, I'm sceptical.

ETA on child labour: I don't like the idea of kids having to work either, but neither do I like the idea of children and their families starving because someone half a world away forbade them from working. Remember, all too often child labour occurs in countries where schools are either too expensive for many people, or simply non-existent. I know I would push any kids I may have one day into work, too, if it was necessary to put food on the table.

 

[DC]

for those interested in Fair-trade

here some studies

http://www.wfto-europe.org/lang-en/documents.html

 

[Safe-Keeper]

you are not neutral.
you took an anti fairtrade stance.

I believe he has adopted the stance of "I really couldn't care less, but here's my strong feelings on the subject anyway".

for those interested in Fair-trade

here some studies

http://www.wfto-europe.org/lang-en/documents.html

Thankses, will get to reading them right away.

 

[DC]

I don't like the idea of kids having to work either, but neither do I like the idea of children and their families starving because someone half a world away forbade them from working. Remember, all too often child labour occurs in countries where schools are either too expensive for many people, or simply non-existent. I know I would push any kids I may have one day into work, too, if it was necessary to put food on the table.

very very good point.

just banning child labor is not helping anyone.

that is why i buy my Max Havelaar bananas.

there i know the farmers earn enough to feed their kids, while their kids are going to school instead of working.

i think fairtrade is the best weapon against child labor.

 

[roger]

ETA on child labour: I don't like the idea of kids having to work either, but neither do I like the idea of children and their families starving because someone half a world away forbade them from working. Remember, all too often child labour occurs in countries where schools are either too expensive for many people, or simply non-existent. I know I would push any kids I may have one day into work, too, if it was necessary to put food on the table.

The claim in the link is not child labor, but child slavery. Working without a say and without pay. Being trafficked across international boundaries against their will. Beatings. Being locked up at night. Beaten for trying to escape. Work sunup to sundown. Beaten if you drop a bag. Insufficient food.

Did I mention the slavery and beatings?