Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[HumanityBlues]

Perhaps...or kitchen towel (that's quite easy to flush down the toilet after). Newspaper would have had to have been taken and thrown away somewhere so would have been more inconvenient. It's even possible Meredith's towels were used in this way.

Personally though, I think they hopped, or limped, just placing down a partial heel when stepping.

Why do you say "they" when talking about them hopping to the bathroom? There is only one footprint in there anyways.

Edit: (sorry for all the other edits but new questions will keep coming up and I want to keep them in the same space). When you say kitchen towel, you mean a paper towel correct?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Why do you say "they" when talking about them hopping to the bathroom? There is only one footprint in there anyways.

But there is more then one bare luminol footprint in the hallway and they are from two different people. Therefore, both stepped in blood and since there are no trails of prints, they both must have headed to the bathroom to wash their foot off.

 

[HumanityBlues]

But there isn't one bare luminol footprint in the hallway and they are from two different people. Therefore, both stepped in blood and since there are no trails of prints, they both must have headed to the bathroom to wash their foot off.

Ok, your contention is, and sorry if I get this wrong...they hopped to that bathroom, both of them, to wash their feet, or used towels, and this is why there are no footprints going to the bathroom. And both of them did this is what you're saying?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

If they did clean up the trail of bloody footprints leading to the bathroom, why didn't the luminol detect it? Even if the footprints were cleaned, the blood would smear like paint and the luminol should have detected the smears of blood.

Edit: This would be the same for Amanda's "missing footprints". If they were cleaned the luminol still should have detected the blood on the floor where the footprints would be.

Bleach solution.

There's strong reason to believe bleach was used to clean the knife, why not also to clean the floor where Raffaele and Amanda had walked?

 

[HumanityBlues]

I'm sure this has been answered somewhere else, but I actually can't find anything reliable at the moment on it, though my search has been pretty quick. Did they actually ever test the luminol enhanced prints for blood? DNA?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Ok, your contention is, and sorry if I get this wrong...they hopped to that bathroom, both of them, to wash their feet, or used towels, and this is why there are no footprints going to the bathroom. And both of them did this is what you're saying?

Yes, but in the process put their foot down on the floor on one or more occasion, perhaps having lost balance. However, Massei offers a slightly different explanation. In his scenario they clean their foot on the bathroom but micro thin traces of blood remain on the soles of the feet and the scrubbing has lifted epitheal cells with them. The feet are then put on the floor at several locations 'after' leaving the bathroom which in turn leaves a micro thin layer of blood and in Amanda's case, sometimes her own cells (hence her DNA), on the floor leaving prints invisible to the naked eye, but visible to luminol. Massei's explanation probably fits better since it would explain Amanda's luminol prints in her own room (one might imagine her stepping in the corridor on her way to the bathroom but it's difficult to imagine why she'd go into her room with a visibly bloody foot and pad about in there).

 

[Fulcanelli]

I'm sure this has been answered somewhere else, but I actually can't find anything reliable at the moment on it, though my search has been pretty quick. Did they actually ever test the luminol enhanced prints for blood? DNA?

Yes, Amanda's and Meredith's DNA was found in some of the prints (none of Rudy's or Raffaele's). A blood test wasn't done since it was considered there was not enough blood to test and getting DNA was more important (a blood test requires removing part of the sample so it can be tested for blood, but if you test the sample for blood it can't then be tested for DNA).

 

[HumanityBlues]

Yes, but in the process put their foot down on the floor on one or more occasion, perhaps having lost balance. However, Massei offers a slightly different explanation. In his scenario they clean their foot on the bathroom but micro thin traces of blood remain on the soles of the feet and the scrubbing has lifted epitheal cells with them. The feet are then put on the floor at several locations 'after' leaving the bathroom which in turn leaves a micro thin layer of blood and in Amanda's case, sometimes her own cells (hence her DNA), on the floor leaving prints invisible to the naked eye, but visible to luminol. Massei's explanation probably fits better since it would explain Amanda's luminol prints in her own room (one might imagine her stepping in the corridor on her way to the bathroom but it's difficult to imagine why she'd go into her room with a visibly bloody foot and pad about in there).

But why would they be walking around barefoot all the time? If it's because their shoes were bloody, what did they do with their shoes do you think? Also, this part of the theory seems a little confused. Do you have them both hopping to the bathroom at the same time?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Yes, Amanda's and Meredith's DNA was found in some of the prints (none of Rudy's or Raffaele's). A blood test wasn't done since it was considered there was not enough blood to test and getting DNA was more important (a blood test requires removing part of the sample so it can be tested for blood, but if you test the sample for blood it can't then be tested for DNA).

But there were other luminol enhanced prints where Meredith's DNA wasn't found correct?

 

[Fulcanelli]

But why would they be walking around barefoot all the time? If it's because their shoes were bloody, what did they do with their shoes do you think? Also, this part of the theory seems a little confused. Do you have them both hopping to the bathroom at the same time?

I would suppose because bare feet are far easier to clean then shoes are. They also would have needed to leave the cottage after and they wouldn't be wanting to walk around the streets with visible blood on their shoes (in contrast, bare feet are hidden inside socks and shoes) and neither would they have wanted to hang around the cottage longer then they needed to, risking discovery spending time trying to clean their shoes). Feet can be washed quickly, shoes cannot and the concern wouldn't have just been about blood but DNA, which is harder still to wash off since you can't see it. And they would also have realised (from popular TV crime entertainment) the prints from shoes are often matched to suspects.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I would suppose because bare feet are far easier to clean then shoes are. They also would have needed to leave the cottage after and they wouldn't be wanting to walk around the streets with visible blood on their shoes (in contrast, bare feet are hidden inside socks and shoes) and neither would they have wanted to hang around the cottage longer then they needed to, risking discovery spending time trying to clean their shoes). Feet can be washed quickly, shoes cannot and the concern wouldn't have just been about blood but DNA, which is harder still to wash off since you can't see it. And they would also have realised (from popular TV crime entertainment) the prints from shoes are often matched to suspects.

When did they take their shoes off?

 

[Fulcanelli]

But there were other luminol enhanced prints where Meredith's DNA wasn't found correct?

Yes. But you're not always going to find DNA in traces of blood anyway. Most blood cells are red blood cells and they don't contain DNA. If you have a large enough sample it may just contain enough white cells in order to get a profile, but the chances are lowered the smaller the sample.

 

[Fulcanelli]

When did they take their shoes off?

They could have taken their shoes off at any point after the murder and before they decided to stage..potentially. However, Massei believes their shoes were already off when they actually attacked Meredith. He has no proof of that, but that's how he sees it in his scenario.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Do you believe the footprints outside of the murder room were cleaned? And if so with what or how?

I'll be back later.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Edit: (sorry for all the other edits but new questions will keep coming up and I want to keep them in the same space). When you say kitchen towel, you mean a paper towel correct?

Yes, paper kitchen towel.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Bleach solution.

There's strong reason to believe bleach was used to clean the knife, why not also to clean the floor where Raffaele and Amanda had walked?

Supposedly luminol reacts with bleach similarly to the luminescence it reacts with blood. The thing is again, if bleach was used with a mop for instance, on the floor, then the foot prints wouldn't have shown up as foot prints. At best they would show up at smears like paint (this is how Garafano describes it).

This is what wikipedia says in terms of bleach and luminol: Luminol chemiluminescence can also be triggered by copper or copper-containing alloys, horseradish, and certain bleaches[citation needed]; and, as a result, if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a bleach solution[specify], residual bleach will cause the entire crime scene to produce the typical blue glow, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.

I don't know how many kind of bleach agents there are. I actually never use bleach at home and only used it when I was in a restaurant. But doesn't luminol react with most bleaches?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Do you believe the footprints outside of the murder room were cleaned? And if so with what or how?

I'll be back later.

It depends which scenario you think more plausible. If you think it more likely the prints were put down on the way to the bathroom, then those prints would have been made in visible blood and therefore would have required cleaning. If you however, accept Massei's scenario that they were made in invisible blood traces after they washed their feet (but the feet were still wet) then that negates the requirement for cleaning the prints since they would have been invisible to them and they wouldn't have known they even existed.

There is of course, also a third possibility...a mixture of the two scenarios...that one or more of the prints were laid down before heading to the bathroom (and therefore in visible blood that was later cleaned), with the rest being laid down invisibly from residue on the soles of the feet after they washed them.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Supposedly luminol reacts with bleach similarly to the luminescence it reacts with blood. The thing is again, if bleach was used with a mop for instance, on the floor, then the foot prints wouldn't have shown up as foot prints. At best they would show up at smears like paint (this is how Garafano describes it).

This is what wikipedia says in terms of bleach and luminol: Luminol chemiluminescence can also be triggered by copper or copper-containing alloys, horseradish, and certain bleaches[citation needed]; and, as a result, if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a bleach solution[specify], residual bleach will cause the entire crime scene to produce the typical blue glow, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.

I don't know how many kind of bleach agents there are. I actually never use bleach at home and only used it when I was in a restaurant. But doesn't luminol react with most bleaches?

Yes, but only if they had used a cleaning product containing bleach. There were cleaning products ready to hand in the cottage, none of which contained bleach.

Even if bleach had been used, bleach is non persistent...it degrades within 48 hours and the luminol application was the last forensic test performed in the cottage, after that time frame. Moreover, investigators can recognise a reaction with bleach since it flares in a way far more differently to how it does with blood...with bleach it flares very brightly and for a much shorter time. Also as you say, the whole floor would have lit up. Finally, bleach reacts with luminol to form chlorine gas and if you inhale that you know all about it. It would have been clear to the forensics team that it was bleach. Indeed, it can be said that luminol is not only used as a presumptive blood test, but also as a presumptive bleach test.

 

[Fulcanelli]

But why would they be walking around barefoot all the time? If it's because their shoes were bloody, what did they do with their shoes do you think? Also, this part of the theory seems a little confused. Do you have them both hopping to the bathroom at the same time?

Well, they don't 'have' to have headed to the bathroom at exactly the same time. However, Massei has them going to the bathroom to clean their feet at the same time. For him, this explains why Raffaele used the shower to clean his foot (hence his print on the mat by the shower) and why Amanda used the bidet (as evidenced by the blood in the bidet). He also cites the different mode of foot washing that they used as an explanation as to why Amanda's luminol prints often contained hers and Meredith's DNA afterwards but Raffaele's didn't and there were less of Raffaele's luminol prints. That being, that the shower would of used a larger volume of water at a faster rate at higher pressure, so removing those epthaleal cells he exfoliated while washing and more blood and DNA, whereas the flow from the bidet would have been a poor medium for that, which was the case with Amanda.

 

[shuttlt]

Speaking of TV, am I the only one on this thread who does not believe stilicho when he says he has never seen the video clip of Amanda and Raffaele kissing?

Just to add my vote here. I haven't seen it either. It's never seemed import enough to find on YouTube as it has only ever really been mentioned in passing in this discussion. I've seen the still from it that's been posted everywhere of course. Is anything to be learned by watching it?