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Noah's Ark found?

MG1962 said:
Yes only heaps bigger - and potentially less dangerous to carry around


Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark's dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high
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We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
 
Explorer said:
The Daily Mirror report on this topic mentions that the wood used in this structure does not match the biblical account.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...s-ark-is-found-up-a-mountain-115875-22217374/
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That's also mentioned in the SCMP original article. Gopher wood (bible) versus some type of cedar (sample). They don't seem to care about that discrepancy. It seems that the bible is to be taken literally when it is convenient to take it literally and to be reinterpreted when it has inconvenient little mismatches.
 
MRC_Hans said:
We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
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All this is very true, but the fundies will just wave their hands and say that God gave Noah some miraculous help.

Why God instructed Noah to build a big impossible box and fill it with an impossible collection of animals, when He could have just saved them all miraculously anyway, is anybody's guess.
 
Radrook said:
Well, if they did find something there resembling an ark the explanation would probably be that it was someone trying to escape a local flood. You know, the story about the Meditertaenian rushing into the black sea.
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(I'm guessing you don't use a spell-checker because you think it is something to do with witches? Anyway...)

A local flood is hardly likely to flood anywhere to the HEIGHT of 4000 meters (that's about 12,000 feet in the old money) above sea level.

The Mediterranean flood into the Black Sea was a heck of a long way from Mt Ararat in western Turkey, over a mountain range or two in between, and it drained one as it filled the other (so the water levels would have gone down, on average).

The number and scale of the astonishingly massive technical problems that poor old (drunkard) Noah had to overcome to single-handedly build a seagoing tub as per the biblical specifications are, frankly, ridiculous. The subsequent problems of animal dispersion post the ark landing mean the idea is preposterously stupid. I'll say just one word to shoot the whole thing down: koalas.

Unless, of course, the story of Noah was merely an allegory...
 
MRC_Hans said:
We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
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C"mon Hans bringing logic and science into the debate is just soooo unfair.:p
 
I particularly enjoy the line of thinking that it can't be the remains of a building, because (they claim) no others have been found above 11,000ft in the area ... so therefore it must be ... a boat.

Yeah, that makes sense!
 
Radrook said:
Well, if they did find something there resembling an ark the explanation would probably be that it was someone trying to escape a local flood. You know, the story about the Meditertaenian rushing into the black sea.
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As already noted, that event would not put it at 4000m on Mt Ararat. Also, judging from the pictures, what they found bears no resemblance to a ship.

And what is your take on the carbon dating? ;)

Hans
 
Complexity said:
I value truth and justice over superstition, which I regard as the enemy of mankind.

So sue me.
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Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

You assume that I think it really is, but what I'm doing is leaving open the possibility that it could be. Of course, in all likelihood it is not, but from a small article there isn't enough evidence to blow this off completely, as you did from the get-go. That's what I meant by being dismissive rather than skeptical, which so many value so greatly here. Believe it or not we're on the same side.
 
Radrook said:
I don't reject diversification via speciation if that's what you are referring to. It happens all the time. Also, please keep in mind that if two animals produce viable offspring they are the same species. If there differences are too significant then the offspring will be sterile. Domesticated dogs can all interbreed. So speciation has not yet occured among them.
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I would love to challenge you on this, but it would be a derail of this thread.

Hans
 
Nursedan said:
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

...
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I'm not Complexity, and he will answer or not if he wants, but I'd just like to say this: This is just as likely to be Noah's Ark as it is to be the Elven Ship that carried Frodo and Bilbo to The Undying Lands.
 
Nursedan said:
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???
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If it was, in point of actual fact, a boat. A REAL boat of some sort. Or a section thereof. At least to start with.

The photos look to be what appears suspiciously like a crude timber slab hut for shepherds to avoid the winter snows. And a bunch of HK creduloids.
 
icerat said:
I particularly enjoy the line of thinking that it can't be the remains of a building, because (they claim) no others have been found above 11,000ft in the area ... so therefore it must be ... a boat.

Yeah, that makes sense!
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That struck me as funny too, mind you they always seem to be finding boats on that particular mountain! ;)

I know it's the Sun, but wasn't this story four weeks late?
 
Nursedan said:
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

You assume that I think it really is, but what I'm doing is leaving open the possibility that it could be. Of course, in all likelihood it is not, but from a small article there isn't enough evidence to blow this off completely, as you did from the get-go. That's what I meant by being dismissive rather than skeptical, which so many value so greatly here. Believe it or not we're on the same side.
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No we're not. You want to leave open the possibility that pigs can fly, and call it skepticism.

- There is no sign that there was ever a global flood.

- It is not even possible for there to be a global flood, leaving an ark at 4000m.

- The ark legend is impossible because you can't feed and tend such a Zoo on a relatively small wooden ship. You also can't collect and disperse the animals before and after the flood.

- The construction of such a large wooden vessel (that needs to be sea-going) is a formidable challenge, and would require numerous extremely heavy structural timbers. All they have found is planks and light dimension beams.

- The dating is incompatible with Biblical chronology.

The possibility that this is indeed Noah's ark or even a ship of any kind is so negligible that it can be dismissed.

Instead, energy should be directed at finding out what it actually is they have found. - Unless, of course, if it is simply all fake, which is a much more likely possibility that it being the ark.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
No we're not. You want to leave open the possibility that pigs can fly, and call it skepticism.

- There is no sign that there was ever a global flood.

- It is not even possible for there to be a global flood, leaving an ark at 4000m.

- The ark legend is impossible because you can't feed and tend such a Zoo on a relatively small wooden ship. You also can't collect and disperse the animals before and after the flood.

- The construction of such a large wooden vessel (that needs to be sea-going) is a formidable challenge, and would require numerous extremely heavy structural timbers. All they have found is planks and light dimension beams.

- The dating is incompatible with Biblical chronology.

The possibility that this is indeed Noah's ark or even a ship of any kind is so negligible that it can be dismissed.

Instead, energy should be directed at finding out what it actually is they have found. - Unless, of course, if it is simply all fake, which is a much more likely possibility that it being the ark.

Hans
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Alright, fine. I guess there's no possibility that this could be Noah's Ark. None whatsoever. Case closed.

I choose to make up my mind after compelling evidence is shown, not before. Maybe I don't fully understand the concept, then, of skepticism.
 
Nursedan said:
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???
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Speaking for myself, both of the below:

1) Any sensible evidence that there ever existed a Noah's ark in the first place.

2) Any sign that this was once a ship.

Correction: That would not convince me, but it would make me consider the possibility.

Hans
 
Radrook said:
Not as much as my head hurts when I read your evolutionist drivel. : )
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Better get your own act together first:

I don't reject diversification via speciation if that's what you are referring to. It happens all the time. Also, please keep in mind that if two animals produce viable offspring they are the same species. If there differences are too significant then the offspring will be sterile. Domesticated dogs can all interbreed. So speciation has not yet occured among them.
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However, on the apologist website you link to they say:

The Canidae (canine) family includes about 14 genera of dog like animals. These include the coyote, dog, wolf, jackal, etc. The ark did not have to contain the hundreds of species of canines that make up this group. In reality, these were all represented by a few "kind." These "kind" would then produce all the animals that make up the Canidae family. For example all of the hundreds of varieties of domestic pigeons that have all been produced originated from one species, the wild rock pigeon (Columbia livia).
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So, your fellow creationists DO (albeit no doubt involuntarily) accept speciation.

- Talk about drivel....:rolleyes:

Hans
 
Here's my prediction: they haven't found anything, not even the structure they claim and show photos of, where they say they found it, and all the "proof" will by this time next year be long forgotten on the list of previous "find"s that were failures.
 
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