The Freeman Movement and England

Status
Not open for further replies.
I find American judgements easy - when compared to some Scottish ones

I think you've retained some things we've got rid of - grand juries and impeachment come to mind. And there seem to be lot more affidavits and notaries knocking aboiut.

Your criminal courts look quite different (although the basic set up is the same). We are not allowed to go wandering round the courtroom for one thing.
Jury challenges are very rare here now. When I started each defendant was allowed three challenges for no reason. Now all challenges must be for cause - and no vetting is allowed so cause usually means that the juror knows or is known to someone in the court. Jurors names are basically pulled out of a hat and that's it for jury selection.
 
This is one of the things that gets me about the FOTL woo. nobody here is disputing the value of common law as the basis for our legal system (in the UK or any of its former colonies). It is just that as societies grew we understood the need to clarify and codify the principles of common law into statutes. Statute Law is not the opposition to common law, but the logical descendent of it.

What gets me is that you can only be free if you are living somewhere the british empire once was :( Seems rather unfair...

Of course the nothing should change, ever stance is not limited to FOTL circles. Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be...
 
As an English lawyer I find the US way of doing things endlessly fascinating. Federal law & state law - that's way off the wall for us. elected Judges? crazy. Your judicial language seems from our perspective seems extremely old fashioned.

Actually, elected judges are in a minority, are only at the lower level. I think there is a trend toward appointed judges.
And someone from a country where attoneys still have to wear freaking wigs in court should be careful about making accusations of being "old fashioned".
 
On a semi-related note, (related to parliamentary supremacy, at any rate) strange doings are afoot in the Canadian Parliament:

"House of Commons Speaker Peter Milliken’s historic ruling on the powers of Parliament will arrive at around 3 p.m. today.

Sources report Mr. Milliken will deliver a 45-minute address at the close of Question Period on whether the government should be compelled to release uncensored documents pertaining to the treatment of detainees transferred by Canadian forces to Afghan prisons.

At stake is whether Parliament or the government is the supreme authority in the land."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...han-detainee-ruling-due-today/article1548154/

Depending on how it turns out, Prime Minister Palpatine may succeed in consolidating near-imperial power to the PMO. If so, only our current minority Parliament (that's "hung" for you naughty Brits), and the inherently cautious and problematic practice of judicial review keeps him in check. I wonder if the courts will change their stance on deference to the government if Parliament is so weakened?

Yes!

"Speaker rules Conservative government’s refusal to turn over documents violates parliamentary privilege"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...given-two-weeks-to-reach-deal/article1548585/
 
Not a fan of that. What happens if you get the KKK's grand wizard on the jury of a black man?

That's why we have majority verdicts. At least he couldn't be elected as the judge!

At least no-one here can vet a jury to make sure they all believe in the death penalty.

I don't think btw that any criticism was or is intended by saying some of your judgements sound old fashioned to us. Its just a comment on the divergence from basically the same system.

Wigs are only worn in the higher courts these days. To me it adds to the look of the court sets it aside from the everyday- as your judges retain robes.

(If you're ever in London visit the Royal Courts of Justice and look in Court No 4 if you want to see the majesty of the Law)
 
Oh aye? We think the same about your cruddy system south of the Border mate......

Only meant I find them more difficult to follow because of the difference in the language used. I do a lot of Road Traffic prosecutions and quote Scottish judgements fairly often. Also over the last year or so a Procurator Fiscal and I have been after the same defendant (I wish I could tell you more about him because he makes the FMOTL look sane - but that would definitely out me)
 
I didn't think that the Hilarity Quotient of this thread could increase, but I was wrong. Thank you Especially for bringing all of Western Science into question in your pursuit of laughter. After all, nobody could really believe what Especially posts, could they!

Could they?

NB The Wig: keeps you warm in winter, can be taken off in summer.
 
That's why we have majority verdicts.

Doesn't that make it worse? A simple majority means that the jury is more likely to be swayed by irrelevant factors than if it required a unanimous verdict.

At least he couldn't be elected as the judge!

In practical terms, he couldn't get elected here either. A grand wizard couldn't be elected to meter maid in this country.

In legal terms, yes. It is POSSIBLE. Of course you have the same problem with appointed judges too.

At least no-one here can vet a jury to make sure they all believe in the death penalty.

I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. I'm opposed to the death penalty but I think it is fair to ask the jury about their prejudices before the trial starts. More information is always good.

Wigs are only worn in the higher courts these days. To me it adds to the look of the court sets it aside from the everyday- as your judges retain robes.

I agree. I think the wigs are adorable too. :p

(If you're ever in London visit the Royal Courts of Justice and look in Court No 4 if you want to see the majesty of the Law)

I've been to London and I have to admit, London out-majesty's America in every way. The whole damn city looks like a music box carving. I spent my whole time there afraid I was going to break something expensive.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to fill in some of the empty trollspace with some rambling.

One of the things I love about these crazy people threads is that they always prompt me to revisit some old friends in my bookshelf. Especially's nonsense about the Romans got me re-reading Cicero. So let's see what history's pre-eminent Roman jurist has to say about law.

Although it's much more relevant to civil code jurisdictions, some bits of Roman law can be found in the common law. This alone should make FOTLers sympathetic to the Romans, but of course FOTLer common law is some bizarre invention of their own, and actual common law is dismissed. But FOTLers could find an authoritative voice in Cicero's treatises (if they could read, of course).

Cicero, master rhetorician that he was, argued strongly for natural law. Check this out from Book II of his Laws:

Cicero said:
What of the many deadly, the many pestilential statutes which nations put in force? These no more deserve to be called laws than the rules a band of robbers might pass in their assembly. For if ignorant and unskillful men have prescribed deadly poisons instead of healing drugs, these cannot possibly be called physician's' prescriptions; neither in a nation can a statute of any sort be called a law, even though the nation, in spite of its being a ruinous regulation, has accepted it. Therefore Law is the distinction between things just and unjust, made in agreement with that primal and most ancient of all things, Nature; and in conformity with Nature's standard are framed those human laws which inflict punishment on the wicked but defend and protect the good.

And further:

But the Law whose nature I have explained can neither be repealed nor abrogated
Sounds like music to FOTL ears, eh? So what is Cicero doing here, exactly?

The first clue is the political context in which he is writing. This was during the aftermath of Ceasar's assassination and the clash between Republicans (Cicero) and Imperialists (Anthony) for the future of Rome. Cicero had also fairly recently returned from an extended exile brought about by revenge for his actions as consul, and a second flight from Rome during the civil war.

In other words, Cicero's Laws is his vision of Rome restored to its republican glory, with Cicero as lawgiver and father of the restored constitution. It is a work of political advocacy. He is trying to convince, to persuade.

He is quite explicit about this in the book. Quintus asks him if the laws he proposes will be the kind that will never be repealed. Cicero says "certainly, if only they are accepted by both of you [Quintus and Atticus]". He goes on to explain that, like Plato, he must highlight the persuasive power of his laws by making a preliminary comment - a proem - before setting them out.

So what is he trying to convince Quintus and Atticus (and Rome) of? What is Cicero's proem, of which his speeches on natural law are a large part, a preliminary comment to? Is he arguing that Rome should be governed by natural law? No. Of course not. He's arguing that Rome should be governed by Cicero's laws, because his laws are the true laws, in harmony with the justice that is hard-wired into the ethical, orderly, and eternal cosmos.

The bulk of the book is Cicero's list of laws for Rome. The proem to those laws consists of his speeches about natural law.*

Natural law is a rhetorical device used by Cicero to distinguish his preferred set of political outcomes from those of the Ceasarian faction, and to confer political power to Cicero himself.

QED.


*ETA: I should mention that the substantial proem to Cicero's Laws is a separate prior work, Republic. This is a deliberate imitation of Plato, who also wrote Republic followed by Laws.
 
Last edited:
I didn't think that the Hilarity Quotient of this thread could increase, but I was wrong. Thank you Especially for bringing all of Western Science into question in your pursuit of laughter. After all, nobody could really believe what Especially posts, could they!

Could they?

NB The Wig: keeps you warm in winter, can be taken off in summer.

Well, you could, but you'd have to be especially stupid.
 
I should really watch that series.



It's really quite good. Speaking of law, there are some great scenes in the Roman Senate where they argue about what is and isn't allowed, trying to game the system to let them do what they wanted to do.

And there's some epic ass-kicking.
 
Yes!

"Speaker rules Conservative government’s refusal to turn over documents violates parliamentary privilege"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...given-two-weeks-to-reach-deal/article1548585/



Not bad.


“It seems to me that it would be a signal failure for us to see that record shattered in the third session of the Fortieth Parliament because we lacked the will or the wit to find a solution to this impasse.”


I'm getting to the point I might actually vote Liberal just to smack down Harper. The man simply hasn't learned the lessons I was hoping Minority Government would teach him.

That, or Green Party. Have they changed their stance on nuclear power yet?
 
Not bad.





I'm getting to the point I might actually vote Liberal just to smack down Harper. The man simply hasn't learned the lessons I was hoping Minority Government would teach him.

I'm going to stick with the NDP, simply because I live in Paul Dewar's riding and I think he is an exemplary MP. I just can't vote for a party with Ignatieff in charge.

That, or Green Party. Have they changed their stance on nuclear power yet?
I dunno. But I hope they manage to get a few seats this time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom