What is your excuse for killing animals?

[Cain]

Almost sigworthy: "Um, you forgot Poland China. "

So, would rising veganism in western countries reduce the number of animals raised for food, or not?

You're losing the context. The question is "what are we going to do with all the excess animals?" Rather than attack the elementary logic of supply and demand you're attempting to change the discussion of the market in question. This is the "moving the goalposts" logical fallacy.

 

[Meed]

What is empirically verifiable is species, skin colour et al. "Mental characteristics" cannot be verified, except for humans.

Really, how do you think mental characteristics can be verified for humans then?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

How about we take turns? I'll go first. Here's one piece of evidence that supports the position animals are not self-aware.

(Keeping in mind that we've established "self-aware" precludes "morality.")

Sorry, I'm back to being completely unable to understand you. I have absolutely no idea why you think the passage you posted relates in any way to evidence that animals are not self-aware.

I also have absolutely no idea why you think that we've established that "self-aware" precludes "morality", and in fact that claim is so bizarre that I suspect you must not know the meaning of one or more of those words.

No, the claim is not false, judging from the dead malnourished kids vegans have had.

That is a very stupid argument. Using the same logic, since some idiots have taken their kids driving and gotten them killed by driving like idiots, then no child should ever be taken driving. The same goes for any form of exercise.

The problem in those cases was that the parents were idiots, not that they were vegans.

It is about amino acids and essential nutrition, not just starvation.

More mere assertion which is contrary to scientific fact. It's 2010, there is nothing essential in meat that you can't get elsewhere. The rest of you rant falls down on exactly the same point.

 

[Trent Wray]

The angus man, the angus! Its all about the angus.

I prefer my Angus existential.

 

[Belz...]

You haven't responded to my point at all. Discriminating between entities based on empirically verifiable characteristics possessed by the entity in question which are morally relevant seems to me to be the only rational way to so discriminate.

There is no rational way to discriminate. You're just trying to convince yourself that your way is the better way.

Discrimination, in this instance, is a matter of practicality.

 

[Belz...]

As our previous exchange suggests, and this one confirms, the main problem is that you're not terribly bright.

Cain, seriously, you're digging your own hole, here.

Attack the argument, remember ? I seem to remember this being some sort of a rule, here.

 

[Belz...]

You're assessing life by how far it resembles human life which is an athropocentric approach. I don't know why I should not regard this approach as "irrelevant" in your own view.

Wow. This is the second time I find myself agreeing with you.

Don't make a habit of it.

 

[Drudgewire]

They do. And a cow matters less than a dolphin or a chimp. Geez, that was easy.

And they all matter less than humans. Yay, we just learned how a food chain works.

 

[Drudgewire]

And again, I have no problems whatsoever with anyone who wants to live a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle or their reasons for it. If you can pull it off, more power to you.

But those who use it to put themselves on some sort of moral high horse should not be surprised when they elicit this sort of response. It was written by our local alternative paper's food critic the day after he went on a date with my vegan ex-girlfriend, and she bombarded him with the same sort of judgmental "justification" nonsense that's been preached since the opening post of this thread:

Chew on This: On PETA and Foie Gras

Here’s what I say: If it made them more delicious, I’d pay extra for someone to punch every duck in the face on the hour, step on their toes and break their wings. If it could make their livers even one more bit tastier, I’d have them doused with honey, covered in ants and torched with gasoline. I’d have someone knocking them in the head with a stick until they were brain dead.

Does he believe a word of that? Of course not, but it's the sort of return fire we find every bit as legitimate as what's being hurled at us. And of course when I wrote him and told him I TOTALLY understood, he said he was glad someone did because he'd gotten nothing but angry and violent feedback to that point.

 

[cienaños]

Sorry, I'm back to being completely unable to understand you. I have absolutely no idea why you think the passage you posted relates in any way to evidence that animals are not self-aware

I also have absolutely no idea why you think that we've established that "self-aware" precludes "morality", and in fact that claim is so bizarre that I suspect you must not know the meaning of one or more of those words.

I'm gonna go with it's probably 'a failure of reading comprehension on your part'. And that you might not be 'the intelligent, rational entity capable of understanding whole paragraphs at a time' you once claimed to be.

Fortunately, my brain can still understand you - so do not fret, I shall lift the fog and pull you from this farkness. Note-taking is encouraged.

A cursory glance at your epic monologue reveals that you are indeed a master architect of rhetoric and logic fallacy. The grip you possess in this area is so advanced it calls to mind the engineering forte that Dr Moreau possessed in his respective field. But this insistence of using only Loki's Wager as of late worries me. It very well may be linked to your complete inability to understand or possess ideas.

This is what you've said:

by Kevin Lowe:

*snips throughout*

...for now I'm just going to assume that beings with very, very similar nervous systems and very, very similar brains work very, very similarly to the way I do. Otherwise we'd be chucking out most of what we know about mammalian biology and neurology.

LOL.


by Kevin Lowe:

Species in and of itself is no answer. Qualities species have, on the other hand, could at least in theory be an answer.

Quality of diet is a Quality. Say it with me. Quality of diet is a Quality.



the cienanos post that apparently rattled Kevin Lowe senseless:

The limitations on the availability of plant protein strengthen the inference that some animal protein was ingested by early hominids on a regular basis.

Quality of diet is a Quality. Say it with me. Quality of diet is a Quality.



Oh yeah, this was in the lost and dodged. Is it yours?

I've got a consistent explanation for where and why I draw the line

This one's mine. From last time. The bolding was suggested to me by a nurse friend of mine:

What's your evidence for the claim that animals are self-aware?


As for my bizarre claim that "self-aware precludes nature," I am open to hear your thoughts as to how morality birthed consciousness.

 

[Meed]

I find I'm a somewhat unusual "moral dieter". I eat brainless animals such as clams, scallops, mussels and oysters. Sometimes shrimp. I'll also eat caught fish (or catch them myself) or other hunted food. I don't eat or drink anything from pig/cow/chicken factory farms if I can help it though.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Does he believe a word of that? Of course not, but it's the sort of return fire we find every bit as legitimate as what's being hurled at us. And of course when I wrote him and told him I TOTALLY understood, he said he was glad someone did because he'd gotten nothing but angry and violent feedback to that point.

I think this may not be the first time or last time in the history of the JREF forums that somebody had their world-view challenged and got butthurt. Seeing as this is a message board for skeptics my sympathy for your poor hurt feelings is somewhat limited.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

words

Sorry, no clue. If anyone else understood it and can translate it for me, I'd be grateful.

 

[Drudgewire]

I think this may not be the first time or last time in the history of the JREF forums that somebody had their world-view challenged and got butthurt.

 

[Morrigan]

Yeah, the irony is really quite delicious here. I mean, who's butthurt here, people having a chuckle, or people hurling insults?

 

[Meed]

I haven't posted much in the thread, but I'll be honest, the "mmm, steak" style trolling that predictably pervades these types of threads does tend to get to me. It's not that meat eating offends me.. Most of my best friends eat meat, and I'm never preachy or antagonistic toward them. I rarely even think about it. But that so many deliberately troll simply for the sake of offending those with different moral convictions or those who's dietary choices are motivated by compassion toward animals always comes off as disgusting to me. It'd be like if I went into a debate over the morality of abortion to say "I love killing fetuses!" Even though I have no moral objection to abortion, I could never see myself doing something like that.

The carnivore support group poster was actually pretty funny though.

 

[Drudgewire]

It's not that meat eating offends me.. Most of my best friends eat meat, and I'm never preachy or antagonistic toward them. I rarely even think about it. But that so many deliberately troll simply for the sake of offending those with different moral convictions or those who's dietary choices are motivated by compassion toward animals always comes off as disgusting to me. It'd be like if I went into a debate over the morality of abortion to say "I love killing fetuses!" Even though I have no moral objection to abortion, I could never see myself doing something like that.

The carnivore support group poster was actually pretty funny though.

As I said earlier, I have nothing but respect for those who choose not to eat meat and/or use animal products. I would never direct mockery towards them...

...until/unless they start finger-pointing. Then the abortion analogy becomes a good one. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. Tell me I'm going to Hell because I disagree? I am going to laugh at you.

 

[cienaños]

sorry, no clue. If anyone else understood it and can translate it for me, i'd be grateful.

I plugged it into this english to clueless translator for you.


I see the disconnect now.

 

[Meed]

As I said earlier, I have nothing but respect for those who choose not to eat meat and/or use animal products. I would never direct mockery towards them...

...until/unless they start finger-pointing. Then the abortion analogy becomes a good one. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. Tell me I'm going to Hell because I disagree? I am going to laugh at you.

What qualifies as finger-pointing?

 

[tsig]

I think this may not be the first time or last time in the history of the JREF forums that somebody had their world-view challenged and got butthurt. Seeing as this is a message board for skeptics my sympathy for your poor hurt feelings is somewhat limited.

There's salves for that. Some use Vaseline but that's pretty old school I imagine an expert such as yourself has something better.