Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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tusenfem said:
Hey Sol!

Basically what MM wants you to look at is a coronal loop, which carries a large current through the foot point shear motion. Then you have to figure out what is going on (don't expect any help from MM, even 1+1 is too much math for him). So what do we have:

  1. A tube of plasma filled with 90% Ne and 10 % H (and maybe some other stuff, but MM will not tell you what or how much or or or.)
  2. This plasma has, say a temperature of 6000 K, and you can use Saha "easily" to calculate the distribution of ionization and Boltzmann for the distribution of excitation, also not unimportant.
  3. Then you take the current, i.e. mainly high energy electrons, and let them interact with the Saha distribution. For that you will have to calculate the ionization cross section for each ionization state of Ne for electrons of energy Eel
  4. Assume that this goes into a new equilibrium (which it most likely will if the loop exists long enough) and you get a new distribution that is dependent on the current that is flowing. (Now getting a solution to this will probably take you really very very much time)
  5. And then you can try to put the results of what you get into the opacity calculation.

I think you will find the following result.

  1. You will have to assume a nonsensical very hot plasma, which drives down the neutral Ne and only keeps the higher ionization states.
  2. This is okay, as MM will never specify anything for you except some random numbers like 90% Ne and 10% H but it can also be that there is a big oxygen contamination which might or might not be greater than the neon concetration, because you know it's all mixing and stuff ....
  3. Then when you have found the correct temperature to assume for the distribution, as a proxy for what MM wants and you calculate the opacity, and NeVI or NeVII still have 4 or 3 electrons in shells, which can be excited to various energies.
  4. And then after having spend a lot of time you find that the several thousand km Ne layer is opaque.
  5. And then MM will say that what you calculated is not really describing the situation in his magical electric iron crust sun, but thanks anyway for putting in so much time and effort.
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Quite possibly. But I don't mind, at least for the moment.

Michael, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I'd have to do in my lab to make the right kind of plasma.
 
Michael Mozina kicked off this derail by linking to a false color image with no explanatory text:
Michael Mozina said:
Sure these ions exist, in the "non opaque chromosphere". What does that have to do with anything?
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/447006main_fulldiskmulticolor-orig_new1_full.jpg
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He then spoke with perfect confidence of the elements he believes he sees in the false colors. In reality, the false colors represent temperatures ranging from 60000 K to more than 1000000 K.
Michael Mozina said:
The more I look at that SDO composite image, the more I *KNOW* that I'm right.
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He'd have said the same of any other image. (And often has.)

Michael Mozina said:
LMSAL's position has most definitely been falsified by the SDO images. There is no doubt in my mind now that I am correct about the location of the transition region.
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That second sentence may be true, but it does not support the first.

Reality Check said:
The image is not a composite, it is false color. There is a difference.
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Minor correction: NASA identifies the image as both composite and false color.
 
Why are all the scientific delusionauts (Michael,Farsight,Bjarne,Doronshami etc)
lacking in mathematical knowledge? Is it a prerequisite of the Fantasy Physicists Union?
 
sol invictus said:
Quite possibly. But I don't mind, at least for the moment.

Michael, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I'd have to do in my lab to make the right kind of plasma.
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Turn it into a laser. Michael wants no low-ionization states at all, which means population inversion. I don't see any other way to get that. He won't know what I mean, either.
 
Reality Check said:
LMSAL's position has most definitely been upheld by the SDO images.
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I love the pure denial routine: "Pay no attention to that thin light green line between the mass flows and the helium emissions.". Hoy. No wonder you folks are so utterly confused. You are about as attentive to visual details as a rock. When all else fails, you just pull out the old standby: Pure denial.

FYI RC, if those green iron lines started above the helium emissions, or even right at the bases of the helium emissions you might have something to complain about. Since there is a clear and obvious thin green band between the opaque jagged edge of the sphere, and the helium emissions above the photosphere, you're just in absolute and pure denial.
 
dafydd said:
Why are all the scientific delusionauts (Michael,Farsight,Bjarne,Doronshami etc)
lacking in mathematical knowledge? Is it a prerequisite of the Fantasy Physicists Union?
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How predictable that you folks completely and utterly ignored the visual data that supports my statements. Instead of addressing the image, and the details I mentioned, you go right back the to personal attacks. How sad.

Hell, I handed you *TONS* of math related to that sunspot simulation, and showed how the mass flows in the simulation related directly back to the Hinode images. You don't care about math or physics evidently.
 
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Michael Mozina said:
If you look all along the edges of the sphere, you'll notice that there is a clearly defined border region between the area where the iron ions cause rough areas of limb darkening (jagged mass flow patterns)
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I have no idea what you are talking about. Jagged patterns in the limb darkening? You make the explicit claim that sunspots are filled consist of a 90%Ne plasma with a 2,000,000K+ electron temperature, and the best test you can think of for this claim is "let's see whether there are jagged shapes in a colorful press-release photo"? Worst hypothesis testing ever.

MM, your claim has implications for the very basic optical/chemical properties of sunspost, implications which George Ellery Hale would have been able to test with a pinhole camera.
 
D'rok said:
Therein lies your problem. Are you going to do some science at some point?
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Observation *is* science D'rok. We cannot even compare their mathematical models to anything without images, and their mathematical models of "opacity' do not jive with the satellite image.

Let's turn things around now. Have them show us how 'science' is done. Have them explain to you that thin light green line along the horizon that appears just under the helium emissions and just above the "opaque" dark jagged dark regions where solar surface actually becomes "opaque" to the iron lines.
 
ben m said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Jagged patterns in the limb darkening?
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Of course not. You probably haven't even looked closely at the horizon or the image for that matter. Iron lines under the photosphere? What iron lines? Jagged limb darkening? What jagged limb darkening. Is "Denial 101" the first class you folks take in college or what?
 
Michael Mozina said:
I love the pure denial routine: "Pay no attention to that thin light green line between the mass flows and the helium emissions.". Hoy. No wonder you folks are so utterly confused. You are about as attentive to visual details as a rock. When all else fails, you just pull out the old standby: Pure denial.

FYI RC, if those green iron lines started above the helium emissions, or even right at the bases of the helium emissions you might have something to complain about. Since there is a clear and obvious thin green band between the opaque jagged edge of the sphere, and the helium emissions above the photosphere, you're just in absolute and pure denial.
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It sounds as though someone may be in absolute and pure denial concerning the meaning of the false colors in this image.

By the way, the image in question also contains clear and obvious thin vertical lines along its left hand edge, and darker horizontal lines along its bottom edge. (ETA: And vertical or horizontal lines radiating from the sun at orientations of 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees.) I can't wait to hear Michael Mozina's explanation for those bunnies.
 
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Michael Mozina said:
How predictable that you folks completely and utterly ignored the visual data that supports my statements. Instead of addressing the image, and the details I mentioned, you go right back the to personal attacks. How sad.

Hell, I handed you *TONS* of math related to that sunspot simulation, and showed how the mass flows in the simulation related directly back to the Hinode images. You don't care about math or physics evidently.
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It is not a personal attack,I don't know you. I do care about maths and physics,you don't seem too.In real physics,maths is usually part of a proof of a theory,not seeing things in images.
 
GeeMack said:
As has been mentioned many times, the fact that you see bunnies in the clouds does not make those bunnies real.
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Likewise, the fact you see math bunnies on the sun doesn't make them real. In fact your "opaque math bunny" just died a horrible and terrible death.

Our prediction?
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Did you forget about Sumeet, Hilton and Oliver? We!

You say this verifies our prediction? You're in this alone, Michael.
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Somehow I doubt the coauthors of our papers would agree with you.
http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+mozina/0/1/0/all/0/1

For the others: You'll notice we are now in the phase of the argument-by-misdirection where the people who have done all the work demonstrating the opaque nature of the photosphere get crapped on.
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Unfortunately for you, SDO just crapped all over your opaque math bunny and killed it with that thin green line between the helium emissions and the "opaque" jagged edge of the sun. Say bye-bye to your opacity math bunny because it's visibly dead and you're gong to need a whole bunch of new math bunnies very soon.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Likewise, the fact you see math bunnies on the sun doesn't make them real. In fact your "opaque math bunny" just died a horrible and terrible death.



Did you forget about Sumeet, Hilton and Oliver? We!



Somehow I doubt the coauthors of our papers would agree with you.
http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+mozina/0/1/0/all/0/1



Unfortunately for you, SDO just crapped all over your opaque math bunny and killed it with that thin green line between the helium emissions and the "opaque" jagged edge of the sun. Say bye-bye to your opacity math bunny because it's visibly dead and you're gong to need a whole bunch of new math bunnies very soon.
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Provide us with the maths bunnies and prove your theory then. Why do you always leave the stuff that requires actual knowledge to others? Incompetence or laziness?
 
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