Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Michael Mozina]

Yep, I made this point and MM ignored it. And as a general rule there are more bound-bound absorption lines accessible in hotter plasmas. In the neighborhood of 171A there are lines from Mg III, Mg IV, Ne VIII, O VIII, Fe VII, Fe X. Keep turning up the temperature and you'll keep adding more.

Ya, except I believe that all the iron lines and metals all relate to the coronal loops, not necessarily the material in the photosphere, and elements embedded in the neon are likely to also be highly ionized.

I'm also amused that, after five+ (?) years of doing his "iron sun" image analysis, MM learned from this thread that the photosphere isn't transparent.

I simply had no idea you actually thought sunspots were "opaque". Frankly I never thought that was part of your beliefs.

And within about 24 hours of learning this, he suddenly "realized", and is quite confident, that there's no such thing as continuum photoionization that his model's entire photosphere is obviously super-ultra-hyper-ionized. That's some premature confidence, to say the least.

Er, you have that completely backwards. I never worried about the photoionization issue because I have *ALWAYS* known that the neon that is present is in a very high energy state and that's why you underestimated it in the first place. I knew that from day one from the SERTS data, along with the fact that the silicon layer is also highly ionized. In any electric sun theory, the high ionization of the lower atmosphere is a given. It's only because you "made" the photoionization aspect a "big deal" that we got sidetracked IMO. It was worth it however to learn about one way to "test" both theories in Ne+3/Ne+4 images. That's useful information.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'll be back.....

 

[Reality Check]

And now for something completely different ... but really the same.
For anyone interested in what an actual astronmer said about Michael Mozina's fantasy, there is an entry on "Curious about Astronomy - Ask an Astronomer" about his idea. It is dated July 2005 !

Pertinent points:

• The gaseous model (contary to Michael Mozina's assertions on his web site) is well supported by evidence.
• The temperature of the surface of the Sun excludes any solid surface (i.e. "iron crust").

• Undergraduate physics calculations of hydrostatic equilibrium for the Sun (taking into account the balance between gravity and the outward pressure of the material it is made of), also quickly show that the Sun must be gaseous.

 

[Reality Check]

How does the SERTS data show that the neon and silcon is highly ionized

Er, you have that completely backwards. I never worried about the photoionization issue because I have *ALWAYS* known that the neon that is present is in a very high energy state and that's why you underestimated it in the first place. I knew that from day one from the SERTS data, along with the fact that the silicon layer is also highly ionized.

First asked 26 2010
Michael Mozina,
How does the SERTS data show that the neon and silcon is highly ionized?

Start with showing where the data is on the non-ionized neon and silcon in the SERTS data.
You will have a bit of a problem: the detectors detected light from ions of iron, silicon, potassium, oxygen, argon, nickel, helium, sulfur, zinc, magnesium, aluminuium, chronium. calcium, cobolt, sodium, manganese, titanium, neon and carbon. See Extreme ultraviolet spectrum of a solar active region from SERTS.
All that th SERTS data does show is that some atoms of these elements are ionized. It does not state that the elements are highly ionized or that neon and silcon are especially highly ionized (more than the other elements).

 

[ben m]

I simply had no idea you actually thought sunspots were "opaque". Frankly I never thought that was part of your beliefs.

You have given me no reason to believe that sunspots are NOT opaque to 171A light. Every plasma condition on which we've done actual calculations has proven to be opaque. Your invented 2,000,000K plasma is also opaque. 2,000,000K far out-of-equilibrium plasma also appears to be opaque, although you have yet to state enough details to do any calculations. So, yes---almost any matter you can think of is opaque to 17nm light. That's why they call it vacuum ultraviolet. You have given me no reason to think otherwise.

 

[Reality Check]

In any electric sun theory, the high ionization of the lower atmosphere is a given.

This reminds me that we have not yet got to the crazier parts of Michael Mozina fantasy in this thread !

• The iron crust is not the only layer. He has every element in a "mostly" that element layer. The actual formation of the layers is some unspecified "mass separation" mechanism. He conveniently ignores that a gravity + heat mechanism that separates a mixure of elements by mass would only work on gas. In addtion convection would just mix them together again. And there are other problems.
• He is a electric sun crank. So he supports their notion that the Sun is externally powered but is not brave enough to really trust this. He basically states that it everything except standard fusion - see Mozina's EU Theory Debunked on SPACE.com.

 

[Tim Thompson]

Neon Spectral lines

My preference would have been to post the link to the quiet and active spectral data from SERTS, but evidently it's been taken offline. The only reason I cited the work was to show all the various ionization states present in the spectrum, all of which are skewed toward the higher energy ionization states. Virtually no non ionized neon appears in the spectrum and yet all the higher ionization states are clearly present in the data and peak in intensity at the higher end of the spectrum, not the lower end.

You seem to think that the relative number of spectral lines is proportional to the relative abundance; i.e., more ion lines means more ions and fewer neutral lines means fewer neutrals. That same interpretation was prevalent in the late 1800's & early 1900's, when astronomers were able to make fairly high resolution spectra, but had no guide to physical interpretations thereof. The Rutherford atom (electrons around a nucleus) did not come forward until 1911, and quantum mechanics really did not come to the fore until about 1930. It was only then that quantum mechanics provided a physical guide to interpreting spectra. The relative number of lines turns out to have little if anything to do with relative abundance, and far more to do with temperature. The spectrum of the sun is dominated by metal lines, even though all the metals combined make up less than 1% of the sun's mass, the other 99% being hydrogen & helium. So the SERTS data do not support the claim that most of the neon is ionized. There is, in fact, no observational support of any kind for that claim.

 

[ben m]

A few points. The same SERTS data that Mozina cites as though it shows that the photosphere has no low-ionized neon? Right there in that spectrum is NeIII, HeII, etc. If he believes that this is a valid way to figure out what the ionization distribution is, it shows that there's an opacity source right there. 1976ApJ...210..836C shows lots of neutral and singly-ionized stuff (H, He, metals) in a sunspot. In fact, sunspots are well-known for showing molecular spectral lines (water, CO, H2, N2, HCN, etc.)---how does MM think H2O survives in an environment where Ne is continually stripped to +4? It's utter nonsense, and no one without MM's particular cognitive bias would entertain the idea for more than a few seconds.

 

[Michael Mozina]

A few points. The same SERTS data that Mozina cites as though it shows that the photosphere has no low-ionized neon? Right there in that spectrum is NeIII, HeII, etc.

Sure these ions exist, in the "non opaque chromosphere". What does that have to do with anything?
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/447006main_fulldiskmulticolor-orig_new1_full.jpg
FYI, I've been carefully studying the limb areas from the new SDO composite iron/he II composite image. It's a real pity they didn't add one of the photosphere wavelengths to that image but due to the He chromosphere filter, it's really not even necessary.

If you look all along the edges of the sphere, you'll notice that there is a clearly defined border region between the area where the iron ions cause rough areas of limb darkening (jagged mass flow patterns), and the smooth round edge where the helium ions begin to emit light from the chromosphere. In other words there is a clear pattern of the iron ions coming up and through some kind of dense "layer" which ends right where the helium ions pickup along the smooth outer surface of the photosphere. The photosphere is located in the limb region between the rough edges of the iron lines and the smooth surface where the helium light picks up.

 

[Michael Mozina]

SDO totally supports the notion that the "transition region" where the iron lines begin is located *UNDERNEATH* of the photosphere. We can see the edges of the iron lines begin along the jagged mass flow regions below the chromosphere. The smooth transition line between the photosphere and the chromosphere is highly visible in the image, as well as the iron lines flowing up and THROUGH the photosphere and chromosphere.

 

[Michael Mozina]

The more I look at that SDO composite image, the more I *KNOW* that I'm right. The effect at the limb is most noticeable at about the 1:00 position where the helium streams up and away from the surface. The jagged absorption pattern of the mass flows along the surface are clearly visible along the "opaque" limb, and above that there is a short region and then a smooth surface where the chromosphere meets the photosphere. Between the jagged limb mass flows and the photosphere surface we see all sorts of iron lines in green. This is *BIG*!

 

[Michael Mozina]

LMSAL's position has most definitely been falsified by the SDO images. There is no doubt in my mind now that I am correct about the location of the transition region. The light green area along the limb between the helium emissions and the jagged "opaque limb" is clear evidence that I am right about the location of the iron ion emissions. The iron lines certainly must start *UNDER* the photosphere, otherwise there is simply no way to even make sense of the SDO image.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Actually that SDO image ends up being a "two-fer".

That SDO image not only validates Birkeland's solar model as it relates to the positioning of the "transition region" and the iron ion wavelengths in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also validates a plasma layered solar model theory.

If you notice in the SDO image, the helium lines do not start inside the photosphere along the iron lines where things are hot, or "deeper" in the photosphere where is supposed to get hotter. Instead, all the helium emissions begin as a complete "plasma ring", or more correctly "plasma layer" around the photosphere. The helium is not embedded in the photosphere, it begins as a layer above the neon photosphere.

Not only did SDO verify our prediction of the location of the transition region in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also verifies our prediction of a elementally arranged plasma atmosphere.

Wow!

 

[Reality Check]

SDO totally supports the notion that the "transition region" where the iron lines begin is located *UNDERNEATH* of the photosphere. We can see the edges of the iron lines begin along the jagged mass flow regions below the chromosphere. The smooth transition line between the photosphere and the chromosphere is highly visible in the image, as well as the iron lines flowing up and THROUGH the photosphere and chromosphere.

SDO totally supports that fact that the transition region where the iron ions emiitting the iron lines are located *ABOVE* the photosphere. Any one who knows any physics can see that the temperature needed to ionize the Fe is only available above the photosphere.

 

[tusenfem]

Well, I can't help you until you give me that information - and probably more that will become apparent as we proceed.

Hey Sol!

Basically what MM wants you to look at is a coronal loop, which carries a large current through the foot point shear motion. Then you have to figure out what is going on (don't expect any help from MM, even 1+1 is too much math for him). So what do we have:

1. A tube of plasma filled with 90% Ne and 10 % H (and maybe some other stuff, but MM will not tell you what or how much or or or.)
2. This plasma has, say a temperature of 6000 K, and you can use Saha "easily" to calculate the distribution of ionization and Boltzmann for the distribution of excitation, also not unimportant.
3. Then you take the current, i.e. mainly high energy electrons, and let them interact with the Saha distribution. For that you will have to calculate the ionization cross section for each ionization state of Ne for electrons of energy E_el
4. Assume that this goes into a new equilibrium (which it most likely will if the loop exists long enough) and you get a new distribution that is dependent on the current that is flowing. (Now getting a solution to this will probably take you really very very much time)
5. And then you can try to put the results of what you get into the opacity calculation.

I think you will find the following result.

1. You will have to assume a nonsensical very hot plasma, which drives down the neutral Ne and only keeps the higher ionization states.
2. This is okay, as MM will never specify anything for you except some random numbers like 90% Ne and 10% H but it can also be that there is a big oxygen contamination which might or might not be greater than the neon concetration, because you know it's all mixing and stuff ....
3. Then when you have found the correct temperature to assume for the distribution, as a proxy for what MM wants and you calculate the opacity, and NeVI or NeVII still have 4 or 3 electrons in shells, which can be excited to various energies.
4. And then after having spend a lot of time you find that the several thousand km Ne layer is opaque.
5. And then MM will say that what you calculated is not really describing the situation in his magical electric iron crust sun, but thanks anyway for putting in so much time and effort.

 

[Reality Check]

The more I look at that SDO composite image, the more I *KNOW* that I'm right. The effect at the limb is most noticeable at about the 1:00 position where the helium streams up and away from the surface. The jagged absorption pattern of the mass flows along the surface are clearly visible along the "opaque" limb, and above that there is a short region and then a smooth surface where the chromosphere meets the photosphere. Between the jagged limb mass flows and the photosphere surface we see all sorts of iron lines in green. This is *BIG*!

The more I look at that SDO composite, the more I *KNOW* that Michael Mozina is seeing bunnies in a picture once again to support his fantasy*.
That is *DUMB*!

The photosphere is at a temperature of ~6000 K. It probably emits a tiny light in the extreme UV (it has roughly a black body spectrum) but this is overwhelmed by the extreme UV light emitted by the chromosphere and above that is detected in the image.

SDO First Light Image

A full-disk multiwavelength extreme ultraviolet image of the sun taken by SDO on March 30, 2010. False colors trace different gas temperatures. Reds are relatively cool (about 60,000 Kelvin, or 107,540 F); blues and greens are hotter (greater than 1 million Kelvin, or 1,799,540 F). Credit: NASA/GSFC/AIA

He is displaying his incompetence yet again (e.g. No little plasma (penumbral) filament! ).

• The image is not a composite, it is false color. There is a difference. A composite is created from images from (usually) different detectors. A false color image is a
• There is no "stream of helium" at any point in the image.
• There are no mass flows visible.
• All of the image is light from material that is at a temperature of at least 60,000 K. This is above the photosphere.

The SDO image thus totally disproves Michael Mozina fantasy once again. If he is deluded enough to think that it shows any of his layers or his iron crust then there are at a temperature > 60,000 K.

*A fanatsy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutley nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

 

[Reality Check]

LMSAL's position has most definitely been falsified by the SDO images. There is no doubt in my mind now that I am correct about the location of the transition region. The light green area along the limb between the helium emissions and the jagged "opaque limb" is clear evidence that I am right about the location of the iron ion emissions. The iron lines certainly must start *UNDER* the photosphere, otherwise there is simply no way to even make sense of the SDO image.

LMSAL's position has most definitely been upheld by the SDO images.

More bunnies from Michael Mozina ! Also he has no idea what the "LMSAL position" is as in question 44:

44. Citation for the LMSAL claim that coronal loops all originate *ABOVE* the photosphere?
​

The light green area "under the limb" at 1 o clock in the image is 1,000,000 K material rising from the chromosphere. It is almost facing the detector and not actually under the limb as in Michael Mozina fantasy*.

The iron lines certainly must start *OVER* the photosphere in the chromosphere, otherwise there is simply no way to even make sense of the SDO image.

*A fanatsy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutley nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

 

[Reality Check]

Where does Birkeland state that the transition region is at a certain position

That SDO image not only validates Birkeland's solar model as it relates to the positioning of the "transition region" and the iron ion wavelengths in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also validates a plasma layered solar model theory.

First asked 26 April 2010
Michael Mozina,
Where in his book or other publications does Birkeland state that the transition region is at a certain position?

The answer is of course that you are lying since the existence of the transition region was not known when he was alive. The plasma state of matter was not even recognized! The Rutherford model of the atom as estabilished in 1911. You are just borrowing his name to boost your fantasy.

Birkland did not have a valid solar model. See Mozina's EU Theory Debunked on SPACE.com where Dr Rocket states:

Mozina seems to be relying on the Norwegian Aurora Polaris Expedition 1902-1903 by K.R. Birkeland (published in 1908) for his interpretation of the sun as a solid object powered by electric current. While Birkeland’s observations regarding the earth’s aurora borealis phenomena have proved to be prescient, his notions of solar physics are rather far off the mark. This is understandable since his work was published prior to the announcement of the discovery of the nucleus by Ernest Rutherford in 1911. Lacking knowledge of the nucleus itself, it is no wonder that Birkeland did not know of nuclear fusion.
His notion that the photosphere is composed largely of neon is also in conflict with known solar physics, but consistent with his notion that the sun in nothing more than externally powered electric neon light bulb.

 

[Reality Check]

If you notice in the SDO image, the helium lines do not start inside the photosphere along the iron lines where things are hot, or "deeper" in the photosphere where is supposed to get hotter. Instead, all the helium emissions begin as a complete "plasma ring", or more correctly "plasma layer" around the photosphere. The helium is not embedded in the photosphere, it begins as a layer above the neon photosphere.

Not only did SDO verify our prediction of the location of the transition region in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also verifies our prediction of a elementally arranged plasma atmosphere.

Wow!

Wow!
More bunnies from Michael Mozina.

If you actually look at the SDO image then there are no "heluim lines". There is a sort of halo of 60,000 K plasma most of along the limb above the chromosphere. This looks like flare activity like the more obvious flare activity at 1 o'clock.


And then he debunks his own fantasy* ! The next layer above his imaginary neon layer is the equally imaginary carbon layer. Where has this vanished too? Then there are the imaginary B, Be and Li layers before the imaginary He layer.

• What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers?

*A fanatsy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutley nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

 

[D'rok]

The more I look at that SDO composite image, the more I *KNOW* that I'm right.

Therein lies your problem. Are you going to do some science at some point?

 

[GeeMack]

Actually that SDO image ends up being a "two-fer".

That SDO image not only validates Birkeland's solar model as it relates to the positioning of the "transition region" and the iron ion wavelengths in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also validates a plasma layered solar model theory.

Kristian Birkeland did not have a solar model which made any suggestions at all about the position of the transition region or iron ion wavelengths, in relationship to the photosphere or anything else. Your comment above is an argument from ignorance if you don't know that, and a lie if you do.

If you notice in the SDO image, the helium lines do not start inside the photosphere along the iron lines where things are hot, or "deeper" in the photosphere where is supposed to get hotter. Instead, all the helium emissions begin as a complete "plasma ring", or more correctly "plasma layer" around the photosphere. The helium is not embedded in the photosphere, it begins as a layer above the neon photosphere.

As has been mentioned many times, the fact that you see bunnies in the clouds does not make those bunnies real.

Not only did SDO verify our prediction of the location of the transition region in relationship to the surface of the photosphere, it also verifies our prediction of a elementally arranged plasma atmosphere.

Our prediction? You say this verifies our prediction? You're in this alone, Michael. You can't blame Birkeland for your own totally incompetent arguments.

Wow!

Wow, indeed.

For the others: You'll notice we are now in the phase of the argument-by-misdirection where the people who have done all the work demonstrating the opaque nature of the photosphere get crapped on. You can see the way this dishonest and manipulative argument works here. All that effort on the part of other people to help Michael with his problem now gets ignored and the subject gets changed without so much as his acknowledgment of the results.

That's his argument by misdirection. Here's how he typically applies it: Troll some knowledgeable people into doing a bunch of work he's clearly not qualified to do himself, only to spit on them in the end by adding a couple more impossible assumptions to the mix and expecting them to start over. I've seen him use this technique to take people on rides for pages and pages, then literally ignore all their responses and jump to another topic as if it never happened.

It's a rework of the old stand-by, argument by shifting the burden of proof, but with the addition of kicking people in the teeth after they've invested a lot of time and effort into trying to help him. Like a good con man he'll toss in an occasional insincere thank-you or coy apology, but unlike a good con man, Michael's use of this method to milk a failed argument is pretty transparent. It's a dishonest and manipulative way to work an argument, and one of his most often employed. It might be second only to his preferred method, argument by looks-like-a-bunny.

And just in case you forgot, Michael, you finally found the Achilles heel of mainstream solar theory and you're in the process of destroying it by doing a little math. Getting anywhere on this? Or will we have to wait for one more photon to make its way up from your mythical solid iron surface and escape through the opaque photosphere, maybe another half a decade, or forever?

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.