Does Raising Suicide-Awareness actually help anyone?

[papango]

To Mikesun, I know if someone was standing on a ledge you wouldn't say such things to them, but perhaps they read your words on some forum and it only made them feel more worthless, putting them there in the first place. Perhaps someone you never met, never will meet read your words and it drove them to the edge. Or read other words by other people who feel the same way you do. Again, I'll just say that this is why we need more awareness, because certain attitudes can make all the difference.

Really? Mikesun should feel guilt that his opinion might be read and interpreted as a personal attack on a person he hasn't meet, who is suffering any number of mental and emotional disorders. Mikesun has an opinion and I don't see how it helps the discussion to threaten him with some nasty emotional blackmail for having and expressing them.

 

[HansMustermann]

Right here, you have basically placed the blame of the suicidal person's feelings on EVERYONE ELSE besides the suicidal person. Earlier, you were adamant that it's all about the individual and outside influences such as other people's opinions don't matter. Now it's the people who disagree with suicide who are to blame for suicides?

When you figure out which side of the argument you're on, please get back to us...

Except they were about different aspects. Do you have genuine comprehension problems or are you still just doing word-plays?

 

[HansMustermann]

I think it's true that people don't decide to commit suicide on the spot and it can be a whole bunch of things piling on, rather than one big horrible thing that triggers it. But you are vastly overstating the impact of random dicks on suicidal people. I have suicidal ideation as part of psychosis and I've made serious attempts during episodes and been really lucky to have been stopped. When I'm there in it, picking my spot and getting my stuff together, I could care less for the opinions of anyone who isn't me. Maybe my husband might get a thought, maybe my mother, maybe not. I can see for some forms of depression maybe it matters, but I think people that low have already decided the world thinks they're losers. When you're in it reality is something that is happening at a distance to other people.

Unless a person has decided to drive somebody to the brink and have really made it their life's work, I don't think they should feel guilty about a suicide.

While I don't mean to minimize your problems, the largest bulk of suicides are males, who are by traditional gender role supposed to be tough and all that. Due to education and culture, even admitting that one is depressed or even remotely considering giving up and abandoning one's "duty" is for a lot of people pretty much akin wearing a big "I'm a loser sign."

Not saying you gals have it easy or easier in other aspects, but just saying that you're allowed to, say, cry on someone's shoulder. Depending on the culture and group, a guy might as well start wearing a pink tutu if he does that.

Reminding someone that yep, the thing they're considering, is such a horribly anti-social act and failure to fulfill their role, really doesn't help to get them talk about it. Telling a friend about it or calling a hotline to tell a stranger about it, well, it's like admitting being an utterly abject failure of a human being. Because that's what such attitudes around them kept telling them.

So they'll keep it bottled up inside instead of going and getting some help. As was said, most of them won't admit to anyone that they even ever thought of suicide, until the day they surprise everyone by actually doing it.

_That_ is where such societal attitudes don't help. I'm not saying that talking of suicide as the work of "selfish anti-social dicks", and talking about how they failed everyone and society at large, is what drives someone to suicide in the first place. But it might very well be what keeps them from getting help.

Plus, it might just make them feel as even more of a failure in the last stages, and feeling like a complete failure is the reason behind enough suicides.

 

[luchog]

Do I, as a father, have a responsibility not to join the army, even if drafted? Do I have a responsibility not to work in mines or on trawlers or as a farmer (farmers often work alone in dangerous areas with potentially lethal machinery and unpredictable animals...not to mention their suicide rate being markedly higher than average) or acrobat or logger etc? Do I have a responsibility to never leave the house in case I'm run over by a bus?

As much as I would tend to agree, I don't find this a reasonable argument. All of these are choices which involve a clear risk:benefit ratio; and decisions made on the bases of whether the potential benefit outweighs the potential risk. With suicide, there is no risk:benefit ratio. It is a final act that eliminates the potential of any benefit to the suicidal person. Those of a religious mindset, like myself, see other issues involved; but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, these situations are not even remotely comperable.

Incidentally, in some cultures, married or recently married men were not eligible for military service under normal circumstances, because of their familial responsibilities.

I think it is selfish, easy, and the behavior of a mentally disturbed and weak-willed individual. Suicidal people need help, not the justification you're pushing.

I am having a very difficult time reconciling these two statements. The former statement gives the lie to the latter. You claim suicidal people need help, yet you tar them all with a brush that is exactly the opposite of help. If you can't see the contradiction here, I submit that you are arguing from an irrational, emotionalist perspective; not the rational one that you claim.

If these are the things you think of a suicidal person then I feel sorry for anyone in your circle of influence that is suicidal. They will be hurt and offended by this, and it can easily drive them deeper into depression and closer to suicide.

That was definitely worth a nomination. Very well said.

As I said it is like fixing a broken finger by cutting off your hand. Now yes in the fact of unending pain I can understand the desire to end ones life, but morphine usually works fairly well to that end. (Both the pain and the life...)

The problem is that morphine, metaphorically speaking, is not always available, is available at too high a cost, or is not always effective. As a literal example, I had a friend who had pretty severe fibromyalgia. Thanks to US drug laws, it was pretty much impossible for her to get adequate pain medication prescribed (of course, that was also at a time when the medical community was still strongly divided on the question of whether fibromylagia was neurpathic or psychosomatic/drug-seeking). When she complained, they tried to give her less politically dangerous medication, which didn't work at all. She had to resort to the black market to get sufficient pain medication.

Just because a treatment exists, doesn't mean it's going to be available. And that's assuming that an effective treatment exists. As I'm sure you know, for many mental illnesses, treatments are haphazard at best, and for some, the degenerative process means that a treatment that works now, may not work at all a year or two down the road. I know of at least two schizophrenics who committed suicide when their medication ceased being effective; because they did not want to spiral back down into that hell. Sometimes, when the finger pain appears to be caused by an untreatable infection, amputation at the wrist seems like the only viable option.

 

[luchog]

Because, IMO, the ones who don't go through with it are stronger people than the ones that give up.

I hate to say it, but Evidence? Or is this just another one of your unsupported and emotionalist value judgements?

A person actively contemplating suicide will not be reading this thread with a gun in their hand, and if they were, my words would probably not push them over the edge. I repeat again, I would not say this stuff to a person threatening to jump off a bridge. I'd let a pro handle it.

But you are saying to them. Your attitude informs how you treat suicidal people; despite your claims. Your attitude is part and parcel with the sort of cultural attitude that makes it very difficult for suicidal people to even consider letting anyone know, let alone seeking help, due to the horrific social stigma involved. Simply admitting to feeling suicidal can be enough to invite ostracism, ridicule, and dismissals exactly like the ones you're posting.

And you don't know that there are no suicidal people reading this thread. In fact, I would bet serious money that there are.

If anyone is offended by anything I've said, then they are not paying attention and the offense is their fault. If they are ALIVE and ABLE to even BE offended, then they don't qualify for my comments on weakness.

Sorry, but that's a bulls**t evasion. The fact that you can't see that for the bs that it is is proof enough that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Me too!!! Getting advice for something as serious as suicide from anyone who is not a trained therapist is a terrible idea. The worst thing you can do (other than the actual suicide) is trying to deal with it on your own, and/or asking professional advice from your family, coworkers, posters on the JREF, etc.

Thanks to the social stigma resulting from attitudes like yours, getting help from a trained therapist can also be a bad thing. People can lose friends, family, jobs, etc.; because no one wants to be around someone who is such as "weak-willed and selfish individual".

You haven't been in that position, and you clearly don't understand it; yet you still have adamant, inflexible opinions on it. I guess the former is necessary for the latter.

 

[332nd]

Seconded.

You don't have the right to inflict severe grief and trauma on other people (Norwegians have on average 20 close loved ones) and possibly more suicides just because you feel bad, temporarily, at any given time.

Thirded.

My Mother became severely depressed because her doctor prescribed an anti depressant due to pain. I'd rather my kids had their grandmother than the money from the lawsuit.

 

[Soapy Sam]

One thing guaranteed to garner some abuse on this forum is any attempt to suggest that the right to end one's own life is as important as any other "human right".

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with Jiggeryqua and am surprised to see someone else express my own opinions so well.

I realise some people find this hurtful and I'm genuinely sorry about that, but it won't change my opinion and I'm not about to lie about it.

However.

I also accept that a majority of people who kill themselves deliberately (as opposed to by accident) probably could have been induced to change their mind had something been different in their lives. In some cases what they want may be impossible- the man who kills himself because his wife of forty years dies cannot get her back. He may have made the only choice he can bear. He is unlikely to be swayed by reason.

The teenager who jumps off a bridge because she was being cyberbullied is in a different league. Clearly, minor interference by the right people might have steered her into a long and happy life.

It seems reasonable to suppose that a large number of these "trivial trigger" deaths could be avoided by better information or better support mechanisms. Given the extreme intensity of youthful emotion, any money spent would probably get the best return in number of lives saved, by aiming at youngsters.

Trouble is that what we see as trivial varies with each individual, their age and circumstances. Maybe one feels as bad as the other. How do we tell?

 

[papango]

Not saying you gals have it easy or easier in other aspects, but just saying that you're allowed to, say, cry on someone's shoulder. Depending on the culture and group, a guy might as well start wearing a pink tutu if he does that.

That is totally true and the state of help for suicidal men, especially if they're middle-aged or older, is shocking in most countries. The only really good initiative that I know of personally is the community shed organisation. Which targets older socially isolated men and gives them a space they can come to and work on things with other men and talk if they want to. It's not promoted as a place for men who need help, though, but as a place for men who want to work on things with other men.

 

[jiggeryqua]

With suicide, there is no risk:benefit ratio. It is a final act that eliminates the potential of any benefit to the suicidal person.

People act to meet their needs. Meeting needs is a benefit. Ending whatever pain or turmoil or risk or threat besets one, by suicide, is clearly seen as a benefit. The benefit may even be seen as extending to the loved ones (though I concede the loved ones may not see it that way). The risk is minimal. It is outweighed, in the determinedly and succesfully suicidal, by the benefit.

 

[Dismember]

So you are saying people who are suicidal deserve to be held to a different standard than the rest of people?

Yes. In the same way that I wouldn't expect a kid with a broken leg to be able to run sprints with his classmates in gym class, I wouldn't take it personally/hold it against a suicidal person if they inadvertently inconvenienced other people by their suicide or were unable to think things through and rationally consider everyone else's feelings first.

I think that's actually the point of contention, isn't it? You seem to think that suicides are just losers who deliberately set out to be inconsiderate jerks. This is not even remotely true.

there are people WAY worse off than many of those who give up and end their lives. If the suicidal should be held to a different standard, maybe those people who have gone through WAY worse in their lives and did not kill themselves should be held to a different standard than "normal" people, too?

You are in absolutely no position to determine who is "worse off" than anyone.

What one person might be capable of bouncing back from with little to no ill effects might have someone else (especially if you factor in things like mental illness) completely traumatized and unable to function, through no fault or personal failing of their own.

I repeat again, I would not say this stuff to a person threatening to jump off a bridge. I'd let a pro handle it.

But your misinformed sentiment is a common one and it contributes to mentally ill and suicidal people being further stigmatized.

 

[Starthinker]

To Mikesun, I know if someone was standing on a ledge you wouldn't say such things to them, but perhaps they read your words on some forum and it only made them feel more worthless, putting them there in the first place. Perhaps someone you never met, never will meet read your words and it drove them to the edge. Or read other words by other people who feel the same way you do. Again, I'll just say that this is why we need more awareness, because certain attitudes can make all the difference.

Really? Mikesun should feel guilt that his opinion might be read and interpreted as a personal attack on a person he hasn't meet, who is suffering any number of mental and emotional disorders. Mikesun has an opinion and I don't see how it helps the discussion to threaten him with some nasty emotional blackmail for having and expressing them.

Please point out where I said anyone should feel guilty.

Please point out where I said anyone made a personal attack.

I was merely pointing out that opinions such as his could make an already depressed, suicidal person more depressed and suicidal. I think I made it clear that I respect his position, I just really, really disagree with it.

 

[papango]

I was merely pointing out that opinions such as his could make an already depressed, suicidal person more depressed and suicidal. I think I made it clear that I respect his position, I just really, really disagree with it.

I don't think it's entirely fair to hold him accountable for how is remarks are interpreted by other people. Especially when those people are filtering the world through depression and suicidal thoughts.

I don't agree with his point of view either and I don't think it's helpful, but where do you stop if you're asking people to consider the impact their opinions might have on vulnerable people?

 

[Skeptic]

or agreeing with a schizophrenic that there really are reptilian beings in Taiwan controlling his every move and trying to kill him by making his camera radioactive.

You mean that's NOT true?

 

[Skeptic]

Yep, because a quick phone call to a stranger is all anyone needs to make everything right again.

Most suicides are a combination of being depressed (for good or bad reasons) AND an impulsive decision to "do it". So while such a call doesn't make everything all right or stops one's depression, that is not the purpose of such hotlines. They are there, above all, to make one past the moment when the impulse to kill oneself is strong enough to act on it by speaking about it. They also give good advice about how to help with one's depression, but that is secondary.

 

[Starthinker]

I don't think it's entirely fair to hold him accountable for how is remarks are interpreted by other people. Especially when those people are filtering the world through depression and suicidal thoughts.

I don't agree with his point of view either and I don't think it's helpful, but where do you stop if you're asking people to consider the impact their opinions might have on vulnerable people?

Again, point out where I held him accountable. This thread is about suicide awareness, I was only making him aware of how his attitude might affect suicidal people. I would really appreciate it if you would quit trying to put words in my mouth.

I consider how my opinions, actions, statements, attitude, lifestyle, and very existance impact other people all the time. I'm considering it right now as I type this. I'm considering what you are saying. This is a discussion, if we don't consider what each other is saying then it ceases to become a discussion.

Yes, if I see how one person's actions (or opinions, or what they write on a forum) can adversely affect other people, I may point that out to them, especially if it's something I feel strongly about. That doesn't mean I'm holding them accountable, or trying to make them feel guilty, or anything else, I'm just pointing it out. If I see how one person's actions (or opinions, or what they write on a forum) can positively affect someone's life then I'll point that out as well, and may very well adopt something into my life that I thought was a good idea.

If our positions are never challenged then we cease to grow. I've changed a lot from people challenging me, pointing things out to me, educating me, (even humiliating me) especially from this very forum. I didn't like some of it, in fact I've hated some of it, but overall I believe I'm a better person because of it. Go back and read some of my first posts when I first joined the JREF forums, there are things I can't believe I had written.

There may even be a day when I'll agree with MS about this. Right now I can't imagine it because I really, really dislike what he is saying and I've been there and actually feel insulted by some of it, so I'll say so, and give my reasons, and move on. I don't expect to change his mind. I'm not holding him accountable. I'm not trying to make him feel guilty. I am voicing my opinion in hopes that he may change his mind. If he doesn't, so be it.

If I use strong words it's because I feel strongly about it, just as I do about being misinterpreted or having words put in my mouth. I used a strong phrase by saying his words sicken me, and that's because they do sicken me, and I stand by that, but I will also defend his right to feel that way and say those things. I see many people in this thread disagreeing with him, but he stands by what he says and I respect that. He is aware now of how other people feel, what he does with that information it up to him.

Just please, before you attribute something else to me, go back and read very carefully what I wrote. You may think I'm attacking him personally but I am not, I am just strongly against the attitude that suicidal people are selfish, weak-willed individuals who are taking the easy way out. Many people hold that view, and I do strongly believe that this does more harm than good. That is my point, I hope it's clearer now.

 

[Skeptic]

As someone who knows depression well, alas, it is true that you can't talk someone out of it by logic any more than you can talk a psychotic out of his delusion by showing him a picture of Napoleon's grave and thus proving they're not Napoleon. The best definition of depression comes from the book The Noontime Demon: "It feels like knowledge".

 

[slingblade]

Most suicides are a combination of being depressed (for good or bad reasons) AND an impulsive decision to "do it". So while such a call doesn't make everything all right or stops one's depression, that is not the purpose of such hotlines. They are there, above all, to make one past the moment when the impulse to kill oneself is strong enough to act on it by speaking about it. They also give good advice about how to help with one's depression, but that is secondary.

I know.

I got the impression from the quote to which I was responding of: "Hey, you've got suicide hotlines you can call, what more do you need?" And in my snide way, I was saying that they aren't a panacea. Of course they can be of great help. They aren't all that's needed, however.

 

[MikeSun5]

Do you have genuine comprehension problems or are you still just doing word-plays?

I went back and re-read your posts to try to find the origin of your hostility, and from what I can see, you're really just arguing for the sake of arguing. Pretty much anything anyone has suggested to combat suicide, you've shot down -- all while excusing yourself from adopting an actual stance by saying stuff like, "Not that I think this way, but...." Again, I thought you were playing devil's advocate, now I'm convinced you're a nihilist. ...and I can't relate to the concept of nihilism (or suicide), so I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree...

I mean, if drugs don't work...

You do know that a lot of the anti-depressants essentially are addictive, so you may be looking at an even bigger depression down the line, right?

...reaching out for help doesn't work...

Telling a friend about it or calling a hotline to tell a stranger about it, well, it's like admitting being an utterly abject failure of a human being.

...and most people can't be helped anyway...

One person could run the marathon in 2h03:59, most people can't, and most people wouldn't be called anti-social dicks if they choose not to.

...then there aren't very many options left, are there Hans? Pretty much only one option. Am I right?

It's almost ironic that people in this thread are attempting to blame me (yes, me personally) for the potential death of an imaginary person on the brink, when I've given numerous reasons why they should live, while HansMustermann (and others) have given numerous reasons why the suicidal should just go ahead and kill themselves.

Hans even showed remorse for not having gone through with it.

I would have probably caused her 10 times less grief if I had sucked on a shotgun instead of going to the wrong university.

I honestly cannot understand this mentality... and I'm thankful for that.

I hate to say it, but Evidence? Or is this just another one of your unsupported and emotionalist value judgements?

For future reference, "IMO" means "in my opinion." Do you have evidence that you like the taste of one kind of fruit more than the other?

Your attitude informs how you treat suicidal people; despite your claims.

Speculation.

Your attitude is part and parcel with the sort of cultural attitude that makes it very difficult for suicidal people to even consider letting anyone know, let alone seeking help, due to the horrific social stigma involved.

Circular consequence fallacy.

Simply admitting to feeling suicidal can be enough to invite ostracism, ridicule, and dismissals exactly like the ones you're posting....
Thanks to the social stigma resulting from attitudes like yours, getting help from a trained therapist can also be a bad thing. People can lose friends, family, jobs, etc.; because no one wants to be around someone who is such as "weak-willed and selfish individual".

Here we go again with the same stuff... So if talking about your feelings doesn't work, and the social stigma that I've helped create have potentially rendered therapy ineffective, what would you suggest as an alternative? I think I know what you and Hans suggesting, but I don't like it.

....and where do you get the idea that "no one wants to be around someone" who is suicidal? Evidence?

 

[MikeSun5]

This thread is about suicide awareness, I was only making him aware of how his attitude might affect suicidal people.... There may even be a day when I'll agree with MS about this. Right now I can't imagine it because I really, really dislike what he is saying and I've been there and actually feel insulted by some of it, so I'll say so, and give my reasons, and move on. I don't expect to change his mind. I'm not holding him accountable. I'm not trying to make him feel guilty. I am voicing my opinion in hopes that he may change his mind. If he doesn't, so be it.... You may think I'm attacking him personally but I am not, I am just strongly against the attitude that suicidal people are selfish, weak-willed individuals who are taking the easy way out. Many people hold that view, and I do strongly believe that this does more harm than good. That is my point, I hope it's clearer now.

I appreciate this post because before reading it, I figured you were just attacking me rather than my point of view. As this thread has proven, it's hard to separate emotion from rational arguments sometimes. Excellent points morph into insults pretty quickly.

I am not oblivious to the fact that many things I've said here are inflammatory and offensive. I did not mean to offend anyone personally, as the people I have the beef with are dead. Again, like most people who post on the JREF, I'm not a closed book. I'm happy to accept when I'm wrong, but so far, there have only been refutations rather than explanations (and of course the whole, "Mike is an a-hole" vibe - but that doesn't bother me. ) Of course the posters here can't even agree on whether or not a suicidal person is mentally ill, whether or not treatment is effective, whether or not treatment is worth it, and a host of other things. "Mike is mean" seems pretty unanimous though.

Someone said they envied me for never having been depressed. The comment was made snidely, but the envy (if it's really there) is justified. I've been sad before, but I have never been clinically depressed, I really do enjoy life, and therefore I cannot relate to suicidal feelings. I compare this sentiment to something my dad once said about pedophilia... I said, "I honestly can't understand how someone could be sexually attracted to a child." My dad said, "Good! If you could understand that, you'd be just as messed up as the pedophile."

My lack of empathy should not be interpreted as a lack of sympathy... (sympathy for those still living, that is)

 

[Lolly]

rather than explanations

I'll give it a go.

Imagine that someone has one leg that is shorter than the other, or a bad hunchback. Criticizing them for "being lopsided" "having poor posture" or "not standing up straight" would be pointless because those things result from their physical disability.

Similarly, people who suicide have disordered thinking. Whether the person has been diagnosed as having a particular mental illness or not, their minds are the equivalent of having a short leg or a hunchback, they are not operating the same way as the mind of someone who is not suicidally depressed.

I perceive your criticism of people who suicide as selfish jerks as the equivalent of criticizing someone with a physical abnormality for the consequences of that abnormality. Just because disordered thinking isn't visible or you can't understand it because you've never experienced it doesn't make it any less real than a shortened leg.

Imagine you feel like a worthless blob. If someone criticizes you as a selfish worthless blob it can add to your negative feelings about yourself. If you had a short leg, you'd be hurt if criticized for having poor posture. In the same way, a suicidal person can be hurt by being criticized for the consequences of what is wrong with them.