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Split Thread Scottish Independence

See, the real question I have about Scottish independence is whether Scots would like it if they suddenly discovered they needed a passport to go to England.


Kidding! Just kidding! Please, put down your halberds.
 
Cleon corrected for Braveheart said:
Kidding! Just kidding! Please, put down your halberds Claymores.
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FTFY :k:


(Yes, I know Claymores are typically two handed, but the gif uses the Diablo I convention of animating two handed swords as one handed swords. Sue me. :P)
 
Darth Rotor said:
FTFY :k:


(Yes, I know Claymores are typically two handed, but the gif uses the Diablo I convention of animating two handed swords as one handed swords. Sue me. :P)
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Historicaly during the the biggest scotish invasion the scots used the pike. They lost badly. Abandoning their traditional weapons for european fashions was probably not a good move.
 
Rat said:
Now that is surprising. Every time I've been near London, I've hated it.
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I was young and had just come from a very, very small village in a farming community. I still love spending time in London. Except for the prices.
 
I suppose this split thread is the place to make this point, or I'll be accused of derailing.

LibDems enjoy Clegg bounce in Scotland at expense of the SNP

Let's just remind ourselves of the actual Scottish votes in the last election held in Britain - the 2009 European elections.

SNP 29.1%
Labour 20.8%
Conservative 16.8%
Liberal Democrats 11.5%

That isn't subtle and it isn't marginal. It's evidence of a completely different voting pattern compared to the rest of Britain. It demonstrates clearly why the SNP has a right to be treated as a "big player" in the context of Scotland.

Now I hear all the reasons for not including the SNP in the 2010 debates. Scotland is too small to matter, it would bore the English viewers and they're the people who really count, and so on. Indeed. But the fact remains, the debate was shown in Scotland and watched in Scotland, and gave the LibDems the opportunity to increase their voting share in Scotland by a very significant margin. The SNP, excluded from being able to present their case, saw their vote drop by about the same margin.

Anybody think this was accidental?

ETA: Opinion poll figures taken from the Herald article.

Before the debate

SNP 32%
Labour 34%
Conservative 17%
Liberal Democrat 12%

After the debate

SNP 26%
Labour 36%
Conservative 14%
Liberal Democrat 20%

If a party performs badly and their support then drops, they don't have much to complain about. However, excluding a main player in this way is nothing but a subversion of the democratic process.

Rolfe.
 
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Rolfe said:
...snip...

Now I hear all the reasons for not including the SNP in the 2010 debates. Scotland is too small to matter, it would bore the English viewers and they're the people who really count, and so on. Indeed. But the fact remains, the debate was shown in Scotland and watched in Scotland, and gave the LibDems the opportunity to increase their voting share in Scotland by a very significant margin. The SNP, excluded from being able to present their case, saw their vote drop by about the same margin.

Anybody think this was accidental?

Rolfe.
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I've not seen anyone giving those as the reasons for why the SNP and the other regional only parties should have excluded.
 
Rolfe said:
Now I hear all the reasons for not including the SNP in the 2010 debates. Scotland is too small to matter, it would bore the English viewers and they're the people who really count, and so on.
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Really? Did anyone here say that the English viewers were the only ones who count? I guess I missed that. I thought the justification was that it was a debate between the three people most likely to be prime minister. I suppose you could say that the Lib Dems don't stand a realistic chance, but it is at least possible. The SNP aren't fielding candidates in enough constituencies for this even to be possibile in theory.
 
Darat said:
Guybrush Threepwood said:
A question for Darat and others who believe that Scottish independence should be approved by a referendum of the entire UK before it happens. Are there any examples you can think of elsewhwere in the worldwhere this has been done? I'm not a great history expert, but I can't think of one.
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Couple of things - I do not believe that Scotland's independence should be approved by a referendum of the whole country, what I think should happen is that there needs to be mechanisms agreed by the whole country that allow the likes of Scotland or the Kingdom of Northumberland to become independent from the rest of the UK.

Saying that from where we are now I think if a referendum was held in Scotland tomorrow and a true majority (e.g. a large majority of the population takes part) wanted independence then that should happen.

But it should not be hidden behind spin - what would be happening is that the future of our entire country is being decided by a very small minority of our country. And fundamentally I think not being part of that process is disenfranchising, the 50 odd million people of the UK that will have no say in the future of their country.

As for other examples - I can't think of any countries comparable to the UK that has gone through something like what the SNP wants.

(And am afraid that yet again we have wandered off-topic - this thread was not about Scottish independence but a specific political issue of the UK - and I fear we may be split again.)
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Ok cross posting to here, since as you say it's OT for the other thread.

I seem to have misunderstood your position slightly, are you arguing that the UK should have a debate and set rules for if, when, and how a segment of the UK can become independent? This seems to be a bit cart before the horse to me.
Surely step one is for a part of the UK to decide it wants independence, then for the terms and conditions to be agreed? Otherwise you end up in endless pointless hypotheticals like 'what if Devon wants independence, but Cornwall doesn't?'
In terms of other examples, I was looking for examples of what you want, and still am, i.e. a framework set up and agreed by the whole entity in advance, then a segment of the entity using that framework to gain independence.
Examples of countries getting what the SNP wants are 10 a penny, including my own country, the problem is that there is usually bloodshed involved.
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
Ok cross posting to here, since as you say it's OT for the other thread.

I seem to have misunderstood your position slightly, are you arguing that the UK should have a debate and set rules for if, when, and how a segment of the UK can become independent? This seems to be a bit cart before the horse to me.
Surely step one is for a part of the UK to decide it wants independence, then for the terms and conditions to be agreed? Otherwise you end up in endless pointless hypotheticals like 'what if Devon wants independence, but Cornwall doesn't?'

...snip...
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Disagree, in the UK we have different groups of people who want quite different parts of the UK to become independent, an agreed upon mechanism just seems a sensible approach to me.
 
Darat said:
Disagree, in the UK we have different groups of people who want quite different parts of the UK to become independent, an agreed upon mechanism just seems a sensible approach to me.
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I'm not currently in the Uk, but as far as I'm aware Scotland is well in advance of the rest in terms of actively seeking independence, so it seems needlessly obstructive to demand that they hang about until there is an agreement thrashed out which would cover any region seeking it.
 
Which is why I have to apparently every few posts repeat something like: from where we are now I think if a referendum was held in Scotland tomorrow and a true majority (e.g. a large majority of the population takes part) wanted independence then that should happen. :)
 
We were thinking of November, but we're constantly being told that the other parties will unite to block the white paper, so there you go.

Rolfe.
 
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