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The West Lothian Question

Darat said:
Given the parliamentary system wouldn't it be more representative of the situation to also look for times when the votes of MPs representing constituents have been critical to assure a majority for the government (or block it by the opposition)?
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Not sure what you mean. All MP's represent constituents, so anytime there is a majority, it inevitably has to be due to MP's representing constituents.

Can you clarify?
 
Jaggy Bunnet said:
Before we spend too long worrying about it, exactly how often has legislation only affecting England been passed through Westminster without the support of a majority of English MP's?

Compared to, say, the number of times legislation only affecting Scotland was passed through Westminster without the support of a majority of Scottish MP's pre devolution?
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Not sure if there was a majority of English MP's against it, but the votes of Scottish MP's was indeed crucial for Labour to pass a bill upping the cost of University. The government had a majority of 5 votes, with 46 Scottish Labour MP's voting for it. The bill doesn't apply north of the border either. Source.

So yeah. I'm paying more for my University education because of this.
 
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And yet, if you lived in Scotland, you wouldn't be paying.

Given all of what happened in the Thatcher years, there's a hideous temptation to say, well now you know what it feels like.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
And yet, if you lived in Scotland, you wouldn't be paying.

Given all of what happened in the Thatcher years, there's a hideous temptation to say, well now you know what it feels like.

Rolfe.
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You seem to have forgotten that the Poll Tax was also rolled out across England and Wales (I confess to being ignorant of whether it was also rolled out in NI). And in many areas it was rolled out the Thatcher government had next to no MPs representing those constituents.
 
I am not in favour of a number of new parliaments, which is what would be required. I understand that the powers devolved to Scotland and Wales differ. I presume that the powers given to the Northern Ireland assembly differ too.

If you want a separate governing body for each case where the issue to be decided is only made by a parliiament consiting of the members from the parts of the uk affected you would in theory in addition to the current 3 assemblies need ‘parliaments’ for:

England issues only
England and Wales issues only
England and Scotland issues only
England and N. Ireland issues only
England Wales and Scotland Issues only
England Scotland and N. Ireland Issues only
England N. Ireland and Wales Issues only
The UK

That obviously makes no sense.

It is far simpler to have a single parliament but have MPs only able to vote on issues that affect their constituents.
 
Rolfe said:
And yet, if you lived in Scotland, you wouldn't be paying.

Given all of what happened in the Thatcher years, there's a hideous temptation to say, well now you know what it feels like.

Rolfe.
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You know, revenge is not a good motive, especially if you're trying to show that you're not prejudiced against the English.
 
Lothian said:
I am not in favour of a number of new parliaments, which is what would be required. I understand that the powers devolved to Scotland and Wales differ. I presume that the powers given to the Northern Ireland assembly differ too.

If you want a separate governing body for each case where the issue to be decided is only made by a parliiament consiting of the members from the parts of the uk affected you would in theory in addition to the current 3 assemblies need ‘parliaments’ for:

England issues only
England and Wales issues only
England and Scotland issues only
England and N. Ireland issues only
England Wales and Scotland Issues only
England Scotland and N. Ireland Issues only
England N. Ireland and Wales Issues only
The UK

That obviously makes no sense.

It is far simpler to have a single parliament but have MPs only able to vote on issues that affect their constituents.
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Or just have a federal government and regional parliaments:

1) a federal government only dealing with UK wide issues like defense, foreign policy, etc. and all laws it passes applying equally to all areas of the UK.

and

2) regional parliaments that deal with everything else and can pass laws specific to that region/state/province/whatever.

That could easily be done with a Scottish Parliament, an English Parliament, a Welsh Parliament, a Northern Ireland Parliament, and a UK Parliament.

That model (and similar models) are used in many places. Switzerland, Germany, the US, etc.

Whether that model is a good fit for the UK is not really my place to say, but in general, I believe that devolving power as much as possible down to the local level makes for governance and policies that more people approve of.
 
Darat said:
You seem to have forgotten that the Poll Tax was also rolled out across England and Wales (I confess to being ignorant of whether it was also rolled out in NI). And in many areas it was rolled out the Thatcher government had next to no MPs representing those constituents.
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A year later after being tested on us first. I forgot nothing. I actually got a letter threatening me with court action while serving in Iraq. I lived on camp when in the UK. Paid the same as the guy down the road with the 5 bedroom house and pool.

And then, when they brought it in down south, there were riots.
 
Uzzy said:
Not sure if there was a majority of English MP's against it, but the votes of Scottish MP's was indeed crucial for Labour to pass a bill upping the cost of University. The government had a majority of 5 votes, with 46 Scottish Labour MP's voting for it. The bill doesn't apply north of the border either. Source.

So yeah. I'm paying more for my University education because of this.
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Vote SNP then.

The five SNP MPs and 10 Scottish Liberal Democrat MPs voted against the bill, as did former Labour MP George Galloway.
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Rolfe said:
The attempts haven't been with regard to an English parliament though, but towards several devolved parliaments for the English regions. The English don't seem to like this idea much, and I can see why, I think. The Scots and the Welsh don't like it either because they're offended by their ancient countries being reduced to the same status as an English region.
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Like the ancient countries that existed in what is now England? This makes it sound as if all Scots speak with a single voice, while, say, Yorkshire is effectively the same as London. It is possible that it's not a step forward to base modern political structures on romantic notions of many centuries ago.
 
That would be a more compelling argument were it not for the fact that Scotland has maintained many of the usual trappings of nationhood including, for example, entirely separate educational and legal systems. Last time I looked, Yorkshire couldn't make the same claim.
 
funk de fino said:
A year later after being tested on us first. I forgot nothing. I actually got a letter threatening me with court action while serving in Iraq. I lived on camp when in the UK. Paid the same as the guy down the road with the 5 bedroom house and pool.

And then, when they brought it in down south, there were riots.
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Which does not detract from what I said - the impression you words gave was that the "poll tax" was only brought into force in Scotland.
 
That's the difference, really. You see "your" country as including Scotland. I don't see "my" country as including England, not in the same way.

Rolfe.
 
Rat said:
Like the ancient countries that existed in what is now England? This makes it sound as if all Scots speak with a single voice, while, say, Yorkshire is effectively the same as London. It is possible that it's not a step forward to base modern political structures on romantic notions of many centuries ago.
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Rolfe said:
That's the difference, really. You see "your" country as including Scotland. I don't see "my" country as including England, not in the same way.

Rolfe.
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Don't you mean to say "including the rest of the UK"?
 
A question for Darat and others who believe that Scottish independence should be approved by a referendum of the entire UK before it happens. Are there any examples you can think of elsewhwere in the world where this has been done? I'm not a great history expert, but I can't think of one.
 
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