Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Elizabeth I]

Post #13000, unless someone beats me to it. I have to learn Swedish so I can do it properly, so I'll need some time.

I'll just give my friend Anita a call.

I knew I could count on my friend the most mighty Pharoah, may roses sprout when he speaks.

 

[Akhenaten]

I knew I could count on my friend the most mighty Pharoah, may roses sprout when he speaks.

Thou hast the matter slight awry,my Queen,
and sprout the roses do indeed,
but only since in thy most beauteous wake,
I do but trail.

 

[kmortis]

Updated for your convenience

Evidence for why we know the N/T writers were telling the truth
or
The Nightmare Before Easter​

Written by
the JREF Repitoire​

Starring:
DOC as DOC
These boots as DOC's Stunt Double
Akhenaten as Yul Brenner as Ramses
Lothian as Hokulele
Cleon as Akhenaten
kmortis as joobz
fire troll from WoW as kmortis
paximperium as God
Sir William Ramsay as paximerium as God
carlitos as Norman Geisler
Elizabeth I as the Spunky, hard hitting, yet sexy girl reporter (aka Gwennie)
Lucian as Luke, the World's Greatest Historiantm
Hokulele as Thomas "Super Christian" Jefferson
Helen as the Evidence aka the character not present in this movie
Donald Rumsfeld as Pilate
Colin Firth as the Spunky, hard hitting, yet sexy girl reporter's love interest.
Robbie Coltrane as Jewish Elder #1
Wolrab as Wolrabrel and Gospel Author
joobz as Logic
Brian Blessed as John the Baptist
six7s as Circular Reasoning
and Simon as Appeal to Authority​

Narrated by Stephen Fry
Produced by Tim Burton
Directed by Donald Rumsfeld Rob Zombie
Asst. to Mr. Firth - Helen
​

Test Audience:
jond​

Pharoah,
Do you think you could snazzy this up with some graphics?

Also, if I cast six7s as Circular Reasoning, who's gonna play six7s?​

 

[Akhenaten]

 

[Belz...]

Why do I feel left out, again ?

 

[Simon39759]

Awesome beyond words!


What role do you want Belz?

 

[TSR]

Updated for your convenience

Evidence for why we know the N/T writers were telling the truth
or
The Nightmare Before Easter​

Written by
the JREF Repitoire​

Starring:
DOC as DOC
These boots as DOC's Stunt Double
Akhenaten as Yul Brenner as Ramses
Lothian as Hokulele
Cleon as Akhenaten
kmortis as joobz
fire troll from WoW as kmortis
paximperium as God
Sir William Ramsay as paximerium as God
carlitos as Norman Geisler
Elizabeth I as the Spunky, hard hitting, yet sexy girl reporter (aka Gwennie)
Lucian as Luke, the World's Greatest Historiantm
Hokulele as Thomas "Super Christian" Jefferson
Helen as the Evidence aka the character not present in this movie
Donald Rumsfeld as Pilate
Colin Firth as the Spunky, hard hitting, yet sexy girl reporter's love interest.
Robbie Coltrane as Jewish Elder #1
Wolrab as Wolrabrel and Gospel Author
joobz as Logic
Brian Blessed as John the Baptist
six7s as Circular Reasoning
and Simon as Appeal to Authority​

Narrated by Stephen Fry
Produced by Tim Burton
Directed by Donald Rumsfeld Rob Zombie
Asst. to Mr. Firth - Helen
​

Test Audience:
jond​

Pharoah,
Do you think you could snazzy this up with some graphics?

Also, if I cast six7s as Circular Reasoning, who's gonna play six7s?​

.
Ummm. Hello? < cracks whip >
.

 

[Akhenaten]

Why do I feel left out, again ?

Not sure, mate. Perhaps if you refresh the page?

 

[Akhenaten]

.
Ummm. Hello? < cracks whip >
.

Ow!!!

Fixed. Top right corner.

 

[Waterman]

The reasons listed in Post #1 are almost all fact, and this post has several non-opinionated pieces of evidence in it

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5702420#post5702420

You made several factual statements about the contents of the bible and the literary style found therein (Reasons 1, 2, 3 & 9). However your arguments break down is that you start running off on OPINIONS about what these literary style and elements means. Those are unfounded opinion. Furthermore when the writing is good, exciting and draws the reader in it is evidence of truth when the writing is difficult and boring it is evidence of truth.

Reason 10 as presented has been pointed out time and again and faulty reasoning. Please identify the NON-OPINION based pieces of evidence that I have overlooked.

Reason #1
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.
For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION it supports truth of Bible.
ERROR this is a reference to a literary style and if you actually read the discussion on the topic it only refers to the probability of truth regarding the embarrassing detail not the entirety of the story.
ERROR this only applies to the authors details about himself, as has been pointed out much of the bible is written by unknown authors after years of oral tradition and are only attributed to certain individuals at a later date. This in itself renders Reason #1 invalid.

Reason #2
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.
For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR this an assessment of the content of the bible and discussing the literary style elements of story telling. The same can be said about Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins, Hercules and other flawed heroes. It is not an indication of truth.

Reason #3
The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.
For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

FACT the sayings are included
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR Christianity started as a sect of Judaism and comes from a demanding but relatively exclusive tradition. The early Christian teachings were modifying Judaic tradition to open the door to the family of god to non-Jews. It was not the creation of completely new religion, it was the same demanding god of the Jewish traditions but a little more tolerant (but not a lot). It would be more surprising if it DIDN”T include demanding sayings.

4-8 not included in post #1

Reason #9
The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.
If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

FACT some of the story telling is boring
OPINION this is an indication of Truth.
ERROR this is a commentary on writing style only and cannot be used an evidence of anything other than a writing style and what that may or may not evoke in the reader.

Reason #10
The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death

FACT people do have strong cherished beliefs that they are willing to die for
OPINION this ‘adds weight’ to the belief being true.
ERROR this only is indicative the conviction of the believers (Suicide Bombers, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate) not of the factual truth of their belief.

 

[Chris Hegarty]

This picture might make a guest appearance on the blag.

 

[Toke]

I am feeling a bit left out.
Could I get a role as extra nutty prophet, like jesus's stunt double or such.
Our Pharaoh suggested "Toke of Nazareth"
It sounds fine to me, and I shall bring my own mud, staff, and 3 chicken.

 

[Akhenaten]

Luckily, the special edition of the DVD (available in selected stores throughout Judea) includes a number of inserts featuring the major prophets.

Here art thine . . .

 

[Simon39759]

But, but the ship is not carrying a godless socialist red flag!

 

[kmortis]

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/NTEvidenceMovie.jpg​

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ SWEET!

Ya know, for a thread that totally missed it's intended purpose, it is chock-full of awesomeness.

Oh, and Belz..., you can be Jewish Elder #2, Appeal to Popularity, or Indian-Who-Is-Better-Off-With-Christianity. Or a role of your own choosing.

 

[Simon39759]

THE ONLY GOOD INDIAN IS A DEAD INDIAN.
Gen. Philip Sheridan

Indians are much better of with Christianity
Doc

Put things into context people and it actually is quite true: Indians did become much deader shortly after being exposed to Christianity...

 

[zooterkin]

Are there any roles left? One of the many slaves, perhaps, perhaps one of Jefferson's?

 

[kmortis]

Are there any roles left? One of the many slaves, perhaps, perhaps one of Jefferson's?

Plenty of roles left. Yes, we have slaves of all stripes, apparently we now have at least one opening for Indians - dead or alive, the Jewish Elders contingency still needs to be filed out, general scientists, atheists and others who don't know what the Big Bang means all need to be represented.

What would you like to play?

 

[Moss]

Hrm, I think the Native Americans might object to the forced Christian education they had to endure before. It didn't work out for them. And (together with other chauvinistic measures) it nearly destroyed their culture.
I'm also willing to contribute to our media effort, I sadly have no clue in what role.

 

[X]

Are there any roles left? One of the many slaves, perhaps, perhaps one of Jefferson's?

Zooterkin, I'll make you a deal.

You play me, and I'll play you.

The reasons listed in Post #1 are almost all fact, and this post has several non-opinionated pieces of evidence in it

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5702420#post5702420

You made several factual statements about the contents of the bible and the literary style found therein (Reasons 1, 2, 3 & 9). However your arguments break down is that you start running off on OPINIONS about what these literary style and elements means. Those are unfounded opinion. Furthermore when the writing is good, exciting and draws the reader in it is evidence of truth when the writing is difficult and boring it is evidence of truth.

Reason 10 as presented has been pointed out time and again and faulty reasoning. Please identify the NON-OPINION based pieces of evidence that I have overlooked.

Reason #1
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.
For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION is that they are embarrassing.
OPINION it supports truth of Bible.
ERROR this is a reference to a literary style and if you actually read the discussion on the topic it only refers to the probability of truth regarding the embarrassing detail not the entirety of the story.
ERROR this only applies to the authors details about himself, as has been pointed out much of the bible is written by unknown authors after years of oral tradition and are only attributed to certain individuals at a later date. This in itself renders Reason #1 invalid.

Reason #2
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.
For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION is that they are embarrassing and/or difficult.
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR this an assessment of the content of the bible and discussing the literary style elements of story telling. The same can be said about Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins, Hercules and other flawed heroes. It is not an indication of truth.

Reason #3
The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.
For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

FACT the sayings are included
OPINION is that they are demanding.
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR Christianity started as a sect of Judaism and comes from a demanding but relatively exclusive tradition. The early Christian teachings were modifying Judaic tradition to open the door to the family of god to non-Jews. It was not the creation of completely new religion, it was the same demanding god of the Jewish traditions but a little more tolerant (but not a lot). It would be more surprising if it DIDN”T include demanding sayings.

4-8 not included in post #1

Reason #9
The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.
If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

FACT some of the story telling is boring
UNSUPPORTED ASSERTION is that these miracles have historical basis.
OPINION this is an indication of Truth.
ERROR this is a commentary on writing style only and cannot be used an evidence of anything other than a writing style and what that may or may not evoke in the reader.

Reason #10
The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death

FACT people do have strong cherished beliefs that they are willing to die for
OPINION this ‘adds weight’ to the belief being true.
ERROR this only is indicative the conviction of the believers (Suicide Bombers, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate) not of the factual truth of their belief.

I hope you don't mind, Waterman, but I've added some thoughts to your excellent post.
My additions are in red.