Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

Status
Not open for further replies.
The photosphere is THICK, especially optically.


NASA's simple definition of "photosphere" goes something like this: It consists of a zone in which the gaseous layers change from being completely opaque to radiation to being transparent.

So unless Michael and brantc are challenging that definition, the photosphere is gaseous not solid, and at its deepest, it is so optically thick that it is indeed opaque to radiation. By definition. So if, on the impossible chance there's something solid below the photosphere, it would not be visible, no reflecting light, nothing. We wouldn't be able to see it, not with our eyes, not with the fancy optical instruments at observatories and on satellites, not with any photographic technique, and not in running difference images no matter how they're processed.

We determine the construction of the Sun below the photosphere by using helioseismology. At its simplest that can be described as using acoustic and/or gravity waves which naturally occur on and within the Sun, and analyzing the way they propagate through the interior of the Sun. The results of that analysis clearly show that there is no solid surface. Use of these techniques, although fairly new, isn't cutting edge science anymore. Helioseismology is used to continuously monitor what's happening on the far side of the Sun.

Hey Michael, you said you'd be making up a couple of running difference videos for us to see. You wouldn't be going back on your word, would you? Probably this afternoon, eh? :p
 
NASA's simple definition of "photosphere" goes something like this: It consists of a zone in which the gaseous layers change from being completely opaque to radiation to being transparent.

So unless Michael and brantc are challenging that definition, the photosphere is gaseous not solid, and at its deepest, it is so optically thick that it is indeed opaque to radiation. By definition. So if, on the impossible chance there's something solid below the photosphere, it would not be visible, no reflecting light, nothing. We wouldn't be able to see it, not with our eyes, not with the fancy optical instruments at observatories and on satellites, not with any photographic technique, and not in running difference images no matter how they're processed.

We determine the construction of the Sun below the photosphere by using helioseismology. At its simplest that can be described as using acoustic and/or gravity waves which naturally occur on and within the Sun, and analyzing the way they propagate through the interior of the Sun. The results of that analysis clearly show that there is no solid surface. Use of these techniques, although fairly new, isn't cutting edge science anymore. Helioseismology is used to continuously monitor what's happening on the far side of the Sun.

Hey Michael, you said you'd be making up a couple of running difference videos for us to see. You wouldn't be going back on your word, would you? Probably this afternoon, eh? :p

:busted :hit:
 
Comedy of Errors Solar Science

To begin with, the "footpoint" of the loop is defined to be where the loop intersects the photosphere, so you lose that one to the dictionary.
Yes, that may be the definition but is that where they really are?
The location where the loop intersects the photosphere is by definition the footpoint of the loop. So we know exactly what they really are, and that's it. If you have some other physical entity in mind, it's not a "footpoint", so you will need a new word for it, like maybe "brantcpoint". It does have a ring to it.

Of course, we already know that the magnetic fields around sunspots and active regions penetrate deeply into the photosphere, so if that is a point you are trying to make, then you are working hard to convince people of something that everybody already knows. But if you are trying to argue that the 171Å emission comes from below the photosphere, you have failed rather miserably to do so. I point out that you have never been able to produce a single image that unambiguously supports your claim. What you are seeing is loops that penetrate the top of the chromosphere, and then assuming that they are in fact penetrating the photosphere.
I think that all of the papers that you posted are based on Bilderberg continuum atmosphere from the 50's.
Well, you think wrong. They are not, and had you actually cited the source paper for the Bilderberg continuum atmosphere (Gingerich & de Jager, 1968) and studied it a bit before posting, you might have figured that out for yourself and not bothered to post such a comment at all. See, for instance, the comment in Fontenla, et al., 2006: "As is usual in photospheric modeling (e.g., Gingerich & de jager, 1968; Gingerich, et al., 1971), we adjust the temperature stratification as a function of gas pressure in such a way that the computed intensities match the observed disk center intensities and center to limb variation (CLV) at various wavelengths. We base this study on our CLV observations using the Precision Solar Photometric Telescope (PSPT, e.g., Volger, et al., 2005) ..." So each paper uses either a model derived from their own observations, a model given by another source, or some combination of the two. If you want to know specifically which model was used by which paper, you have to read the paper and see for yourself.

The emission regions originally appear to be based on temperature assumptions for a fusion model.
Nonsense. The "fusion model" has nothing at all to do with the emission regions; never has, never will, and never could in any case. The transition region location is derived directly from the observations of the solar atmosphere and has no logical connection at all to any model for the heat source. The observed gas is what it is, no more & no less.

FeIV is really hot so its where its really hot. But they are confusing the iron emission in the corona with the loop footprints.
Nonsense again. The loop footpoints are points, or nearly so, small bright regions. The corona emission is continuous. There is no confusion between a few bright points on the one hand and smooth emission from everywhere on the other hand. Where do you come up with such silly ideas?

I would expect that there is a layer of iron atoms but how did those atoms get there?? Especially when there is an enrichment of up to 5 times. That does not give you the source of the iron emissions!!!
Enrichment with respect to what? And why would you expect a layer of iron atoms? The 171A emission can come from iron line emission or thermal emission. You can't just look at a single waveband and know what it comes from. The continuous emission is most likely thermal continuum and the filamentary emission most likely from ionized iron at high temperatures. The only way you can use this emission to argue in favor of a layer of iron is to assume, a priori, that the layer is there to justify itself.

There are no loop footpoints or footprints visible below the photosphere in either of these images.

This one you can see the formations under the loops that result from coronal rain.
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/arcade_9_nov_2000.gif
I see no such thin in this picture.

But the spicules are already a well known feature of the chromosphere (Beckers, 1972 and citations thereto). What do they have to do with whatever you are going on about, anyway?

There is no question that 171 penetrates the thin photosphere, that the layer that is luminescent, and is only a few hundred miles thick.
In fact, there is really no question but that the 171A emission does not penetrate the photosphere at all. There is no possibility of any iron layer or other significant amount of iron below the photosphere, so there will be little if any iron line emission. And the layers where temperatures are high enough to produce either the ionized iron emission or thermal emission at that short wavelength are way too far below the photosphere. The overlying plasma is much too opaque, we would never see it.

So in reality every assumption that went into building TRACE is based on a solar "model". Do you think they designed the cameras to to overexpose on purpose?? Those people are great engineers but if they are confined by theorists then that what you get.
Models, yes, but models tied to real observations and real physics. Your "models", on the other hand, are not at all consistent with any imaginable real physics. Your models are more closely aligned with comedy of errors physics.
 
Let's keep the discussion civil please.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode
 
Iron sun disproved and outstanding questions for brantc

brantc has a idea that there is a solid iron shell inside the Sun.
The problem is that simple thermodynamics states that there can be no such shell. Pointed out in this post by sol invictus and many times to Micheal Mozina woith his similar idea.
brantc then proves that his iron shell cannot exist :jaw-dropp since his answer to
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum temperature of 5777 K?
was It is ~1500 miles below the photosphere.
But the photosphere is at at temperature of ~6000 K and its temperature has beem measured to increase with depth to ~9400 K (at 500 km I believe). This is consistent with an internally heated body, i.e. a Sun with fusion happening at the core. Solids cannot exist at ~6000 K let alone ~9400 K or higher.


brantc has still missed these the questions but they are not that relevant anymore. I may add a couple more just to show how bad the idea is.
  1. Why is your solid iron surface emitting IR or EUV light that is typical of plasma?
    First asked 31 March 2010
  2. What density measurments does the hollow iron shell account for?
    First asked 2 April 2010
  3. What is your "slightly different model of gravity"?
    First asked 2 April 2010
    So far it is any model that he want so long as it "supports" his thermodynamically impossible iron shell :eye-poppi .
  4. How thick is your thick hollow shell made of iron?
    First asked 2 April 2010
    First answer : 93 986 kilometer thick shell but the Sun is all iron and a vaccuum inside the shell :eye-poppi !
  5. Cite the detection of your 93,986 kilometer thick iron shell in helioseismology?
    First asked 6 April 2010
  6. Prediction of the solar neutrino flux from "aether based" reactions?
    First asked 7 April 2010
  7. Please list the empirical controlled experiments for "aether based" reactions.
    First asked 7 April 2010
 
brantc has a idea that there is a solid iron shell inside the Sun.
The problem is that simple thermodynamics states that there can be no such shell. Pointed out in this post by sol invictus and many times to Micheal Mozina woith his similar idea.
brantc then proves that his iron shell cannot exist :jaw-dropp since his answer to
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum temperature of 5777 K?
was It is ~1500 miles below the photosphere.
But the photosphere is at at temperature of ~6000 K and its temperature has beem measured to increase with depth to ~9400 K (at 500 km I believe). This is consistent with an internally heated body, i.e. a Sun with fusion happening at the core. Solids cannot exist at ~6000 K let alone ~9400 K or higher.


brantc has still missed these the questions but they are not that relevant anymore. I may add a couple more just to show how bad the idea is.
  1. Why is your solid iron surface emitting IR or EUV light that is typical of plasma?
    First asked 31 March 2010
  2. What density measurments does the hollow iron shell account for?
    First asked 2 April 2010
  3. What is your "slightly different model of gravity"?
    First asked 2 April 2010
    So far it is any model that he want so long as it "supports" his thermodynamically impossible iron shell :eye-poppi .
  4. How thick is your thick hollow shell made of iron?
    First asked 2 April 2010
    First answer : 93 986 kilometer thick shell but the Sun is all iron and a vaccuum inside the shell :eye-poppi !
  5. Cite the detection of your 93,986 kilometer thick iron shell in helioseismology?
    First asked 6 April 2010
  6. Prediction of the solar neutrino flux from "aether based" reactions?
    First asked 7 April 2010
  7. Please list the empirical controlled experiments for "aether based" reactions.
    First asked 7 April 2010

No. I was basically ignoring you because of the request made from the original post. I asked people to be civil and no "crank" or "crackpot".

"So my model is pretty different(woo) for all you skeps out there but dont go calling me names, ask real questions."
 
No. I was basically ignoring you because of the request made from the original post. I asked people to be civil and no "crank" or "crackpot".

"So my model is pretty different(woo) for all you skeps out there but dont go calling me names, ask real questions."


Interesting. Your refusal to support your crackpot conjecture is based on your feigned indignation. So much for that Nobel Prize, eh? Yep, I'm sure that's how Neil deGrasse Tyson or Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawking would handle it. :rolleyes:

Here's a real question. So far you've only offered looks-like-a-bunny grade school kid science and your unsupported assertions. Do you have any legitimate, quantitative, scientific evidence to support your crackpot claim?
 
No. I was basically ignoring you because of the request made from the original post. I asked people to be civil and no "crank" or "crackpot".

"So my model is pretty different(woo) for all you skeps out there but dont go calling me names, ask real questions."
I did not go calling you names. You have shown yourself to have a Crank/crackpot idea. I have been careful not to call you a crank or crackpot but if you want to take ownership of the title feel free :D ! It is a pejorative term but I cannot think of any more appropriate term. Unorthodox could be used but that assumes that your idea has some basis in science.

I did ask real questions. You have just selected to ignore them because you either cannot answer them or have a very thin skin.
Perhaps you can nominate someone whose has not offended you to ask exactly the same questions?
 
Last edited:
I haven't yet. You'll need to be a bit patient. IDL is installed on my home PC, and it's a single installation license. I do have a day job you know.

I think before I spend money on a lawyer, I'll spend some time creating a few RD movies for you first and stuff your arrogant attitude right down your throat. We'll then compare them to what NASA has in their daily archives and see what you come up with for the same time period. Like I said, I have a day job, and you aren't my first priority in life, even with that smug arrogant attitude. Chill for a while.


Since it's been a few days I thought I'd remind you of this one. You said you'd demonstrate that you're qualified to understand and offer an informed opinion on running difference imagery. Some of us have been waiting over four years now, and the folks in this thread have been waiting over a week. Since you said you'd support your claimed qualifications here you've written almost 10,000 words, posted 20+ links and probably almost as many pretty pictures, but not one of those words was to explain every single pixel in your running difference images, as I have done so very many times. Not one of those links went to any of your own examples of those running difference videos that you said you'd make.

I wonder if this is going to be like the spring of 2006 when you said you were going to "shine" because you were such an expert at running difference images. You were going to explain them in great detail, every last pixel, but then you simply abandoned the forum where you were involved in that discussion.

I'm sure you don't want anyone to think that your web site, right from the very first thing you post as evidence, is a sham, just a bunch of bogus, unsupported nonsense. I called it a fraud earlier, and so far it seems you're refusing to counter that position. So how about you get those videos prepared like you said you would. Maybe you can actually follow through instead of walking away this time like you usually do.
 
Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible III

... ask real questions."
This has been done. Unfortunately, real answers are not forthcoming. First & Foremost, I and others assert that it is not physically possible to have a solid & rigid iron surface in or on the sun because thermodynamics does not allow it. The photospheric & subphotospheric plasma is both hot enough & dense enough that it would melt & vaporize such a surface in short order. See, for example, my post 236 & post 130 above in this thread, as well as Sol Invictus post 898 in the Magnetic Reconnection thread.

I and others have asked the real question: How do you get around this thermodynamic problem? You have yet to provide a serious answer. You should either ...
  1. Admit that you have no answer, and abandon your model, or ....
  2. Admit that you have no answer, but insist you must be right anyway, or ...
  3. Ignore the issue & hope it will go away, or ..
  4. Provide a serious answer, or ...
  5. Think of yet another option.
This is the single most fundamental & important question before you on this topic, or so I think. If you cannot satisfy the fundamental requirements of thermodynamics, then your entire model is a dead issue. No other argument is even worth making if you can't deal with this one. This one is a definite show-stopper, both for your argument and Mozina's as well.
 
Last edited:
"ask real questions."

I have a real question. I asked it already: Can you explain your alternative model of gravity, in which an enormous hollow iron ball can exist which the conventional model says would be roughly 10,000 times too heavy to support its own weight?
 
No. I was basically ignoring you because of the request made from the original post. I asked people to be civil and no "crank" or "crackpot".

"So my model is pretty different(woo) for all you skeps out there but dont go calling me names, ask real questions."

Brantc:
I have two questions that I think you can answer.

1. How do you have a solid or something approaching solid surface, when there is a radiating layer at a much higher temperature, so close by?

2. If the density of iron is such that you would need a sphere then how does it avoid collapse? Even if you have a new theory of gravity, that is what would happen. Unless you are saying that this new gravity does not match current observations.

3. What other lines of evidence are there for the aether?
 
Last edited:
I can't find any hits for this on Wiki, could anyone point me to where I could get an idea of what it means?


Think of digital video compression. If the back ground remains the same, the pixels relating to the stationary image is recorded once and if the image changes (ie subject is moving) the moving pixels get recorded every frame.
This saves on the amount of data needed to render the original image.

Anything standing still doesn't get updated very often but anything moving gets updated all the time. The running difference imagery is similar to this , I think. The one frame has an amount of grey added to each pixel, the original pixel value plus the added grey is subtracted from the next frame and what remains is the moving pixel value, once again I think.

See Geemack's posts about this.
 
I can't find any hits for this on Wiki, could anyone point me to where I could get an idea of what it means?


Here's a link to a pretty thorough plain English explanation of what a running difference image/video is.

For all practical purposes think of the original images used for these solar running difference graphs as images of thermal characteristics rather than of material. A running difference image or video shows the difference between one image and the next in a series, or between sequential frames in a video. They are simple charts of the mathematical difference between each pixel in one image and each corresponding pixel in another. The result of such processing, although it may look like a surface or structural features, is no more a picture of an actual thing than a bar graph is a picture of a row of buildings or a pie chart is a picture of an actual pizza.

The reason they're used by the various solar research organizations is to observe, in a simple graphical way, changes in thermal characteristics over time.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm it seems that this discussion is starting to hang on a single piece of evidence.
However I'd like to hear the other reasons Brantc and MM feel we should abandon the current laws of physics for their model.

After all, no new scientific model hangs on a single example or technique.
So, with that in mind

Why does the earth, with far less mass than the sun, not have an internal iron shell, but rather an iron core? How does your new model account for that?
Could you give the model (preferably with calculations) to explain how the iron shell of the sun formed initially and is stable?
How is the sun heated exactly since in your model most of its mass seems to be in a static iron shell.
What experiments have you performed or would you suggest need to be performed to actually prove how your model of the sun works (I realize that not every physicist can reproduce nuclear fusion, but the experiments have been done)?
How long would your sun last and how old would it currently be?
Where did your iron come from initially? The big bang theory allows for mainly hydrogen and some helium, which contracts into stars synthesizing the higher atomic compounds and spreading it into the galaxy for second/third generation stars to capture. Since your model does not seem to power stars with nuclear fusion, there needs to be another source for iron, what is it?
Or do you believe the big bang model/particle physics to be wrong, in which case, what theory do you have available to replace it that gives explains the results of collider data so far?
 
Hmmm it seems that this discussion is starting to hang on a single piece of evidence.


I focus on the running difference images that Michael uses to support his crackpot conjecture mainly because it's the very first piece of "evidence" he waves around. It's the stuff right at the very top of his web site and is apparently one of his more substantial reasons for believing in the solid surfaced Sun myth. So I target that part of it because it's his Exhibit One, and because I have a great deal of expertise in the area. Once Michael understands that it doesn't support his claim, he can put it behind him and move on to the more physics oriented elements of the issue.

However I'd like to hear the other reasons Brantc and MM feel we should abandon the current laws of physics for their model.

After all, no new scientific model hangs on a single example or technique.
So, with that in mind

Why does the earth, with far less mass than the sun, not have an internal iron shell, but rather an iron core? How does your new model account for that?
Could you give the model (preferably with calculations) to explain how the iron shell of the sun formed initially and is stable?
How is the sun heated exactly since in your model most of its mass seems to be in a static iron shell.
What experiments have you performed or would you suggest need to be performed to actually prove how your model of the sun works (I realize that not every physicist can reproduce nuclear fusion, but the experiments have been done)?
How long would your sun last and how old would it currently be?
Where did your iron come from initially? The big bang theory allows for mainly hydrogen and some helium, which contracts into stars synthesizing the higher atomic compounds and spreading it into the galaxy for second/third generation stars to capture. Since your model does not seem to power stars with nuclear fusion, there needs to be another source for iron, what is it?
Or do you believe the big bang model/particle physics to be wrong, in which case, what theory do you have available to replace it that gives explains the results of collider data so far?


Well now you're asking for quantitative support. In all the years these folks have been blathering about their crackpot solid surfaced Sun conjecture on the Internet, they have never offered any quantitative support. So good luck with that. ;)
 
I understand why you focus on that bit Geemack, but like I said, Michael seems to claim quite a lot based on a few pictures that mainstream physicists do not interpret as mountains or permanent features on the sun.
So hence the questions. After all, I'd like to know how his version of physics explains all the things I mentioned. And how he goes from "I see a permanent feature" to "Therefore its an iron shell". After all there are more elements in nature, so why not a carbon shell, or a silicate shell?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom