9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

Ah, so you are ignorant of one of the most important documents supporting the historicity of the Holocaust, just as you have been shown to ignorant of of many of the details, confirming once again that your opposition is not a search for truth, but a crusade to rehabilitate your Nazi heroes.

Ah come on, be honoust, did you know that 96% of the killings in Lithuania were carried out by the Lithuanians rather then the invading Germans (according to the Wiesenthal Center)? Makes a bit of a mockery of these EG, would you not agree?

 

[TSR]

Ah come on, be honoust, did you know that 96% of the killings in Lithuania were carried out by the Lithuanians rather then the invading Germans (according to the Wiesenthal Center)? Makes a bit of a mockery of these EG, would you not agree?

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Not when one considers that Jäger specifically says that they were acting by his instructions and under his command.

Besides there is no doubt, independant of the Jäger report, that these Lithuanians, or any other occupied people who helped perpetrate the Holocaust did so with the full approval of the Nazis given that no "locals" were ever prosecuted for these crimes by the Nazis.

So other than attempting to excuse the Holocaust on the basis that the Jews deserved it anyway, what exactly is your point here in the context of the Holocaust?

And I'm still waiting for you to explain how all those children were plotting to kill Germans?
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[Ignorantbystander]

Since you are only defending Jewish interests it is not too far fetched to assume that you are Jewish, right?

So typical for holocaust deniers to assume, that since they are so ideological driven, the 'other side' must be equally biased.
So according to them holocaust 'defenders' must love Jews (or be Jewish) and hate Germans.
It just doesn't get to their small minds that most people here don't think in terms like Jews are inherently good and Germans inherently evil.

Poor 9/11investigator...

Ah come on, be honoust, did you know that 96% of the killings in Lithuania were carried out by the Lithuanians rather then the invading Germans (according to the Wiesenthal Center)? Makes a bit of a mockery of these EG, would you not agree?

So what if many Lithuanians were involved, we also know that in the extermination camps most of the guards and executioners were Ukranian, and in each of the occupied countries in Europe the Nazi's could find people willing to assist in the Final Solution.
Famous denier strawman; holocaust (education) is about vilifying the Germans.

 

[Saggy]

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Where is this mass grave? Where are the autopsies?
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It is impossible to 'debate' such stupidity, and, I'm not the first person to observe this ........

"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying."

Now that is a correct analysis ! Amazing ! I came across the bold quote by chance and it was so perceptive and incisive I read the book.

 

[TSR]

It's time .....

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For evidence? It's well past time. So when are you going to start offering any about which you don't immediately lie?
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Snip what Saggy is apparently embarrassed to admit is a quote from his hero, Hitler.

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Found that evidence of mass graves at Vinnitsa yet? Maybe it washed away under the plumbing at Dachau.
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Now that is a correct analysis ! Amazing ! I came across the bold quote and it was so good I read the book.

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... which has what to do with your transparent double standard as regards evidence?
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[9/11-investigator]

Tonight I watched "NOS Selma, de vrouw die Sobibor overleefde" on Dutch public television 'Nederland 2'.

On Selma Wijnberg.
On her husband Chaim Engel.

The broadcast can be seen here:

http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl click on 'Nederland 2', then on dag='vandaag' and next select program from the list

Do not know what to think of her story. No doubt she went through an ordeal. After the war she returned to Holland by ship via Odessa together with her Polish husband she met in Sobibor, from which she escaped like many others in a sort of violent uprising. Due to legal problems because of her marriage with a Pole she finally went to the US where she still lives.

Obviously I was focused on the gas chambers. She mentioned them in passing, not a single detail given, meanwhile shots from the Hollywood movie 'Escape from Sobibor' are displayed: big building labelled 'delousing facility', big row of naked people in front of it who enter the building, screaming... The Germans are displayed as the usual caricature sadists.

An 'ash mountain' as a memorial is shown as well, discussed here.

Again here is the latest revisionist writing on Sobibor:
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres10/AkteSobibor.pdf
(estimated 10,000 people who perished, no gas chambers)

 

[TSR]

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So, since your link isn't live, shall we get back to your lies about Hoess not being cross examined? Or do you want to be made to look foolish over Leuchter some more? Or would you prefer to take a shot at explaining why all of those children were killed by men under Jäger's command? Or perhaps the Taubner verdict, which makes clear that Jew must be exterminated?
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[9/11-investigator]

So, since your link isn't live

It is live... see #3726 on how to start.
Mrs Wijnberg speaks half English half Dutch.

shall we get back to your lies about Hoess not being cross examined?

Not before we have discussed the cross-examination of this pedal-driven brain smashing machine, the NMT established as fact.

Or do you want to be made to look foolish over Leuchter some more?

But my dear boy, even Jan van Pelt and Simone Veil admitted that any positive proof that the gassings happened does not exist! So who is making a fool of himself?

Or would you prefer to take a shot at explaining why all of those children were killed by men under Jäger's command?

You want to discuss the shooting of the children by Lithuanians (according to the WC) who took revenge for what the communists did to them a year earlier? Or the hundreds of thousands of children that deliberate were killed by bombers in Germany or evaporated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Are you sure you want to discuss THAT in an attempt to look good? Boy oh boy... I really have to protect you against yourself!

Or perhaps the Taubner verdict, which makes clear that Jew must be exterminated?

Partisans were killed, yes... a legal act BTW in wartime I believe.
Ever heard of the Soviets (your galant ally remember) taking disciplinairy actions against their own soldiers after they raped civilian women on a massive scale? Oh wait, it was the Soviet government by name of the Jew Ehrenburg who encouraged them to do so over the radio. And the quote you delivered in your Clouseau like in your-own-foot-shooting-sillyness prooved that these Germans were taking actions against fellow Germans who had lowered themselves into cruel excess.

 

[Saggy]

As sharp as Hitler's analysis was, it still needs to be modified a little for today's political environment and for holocaust debate.

The Zionists in Hitler's day were politically savvy and powerful, but they didn't have the power of the state behind them. So, in the debates with Hitler and the nationalists, their goal was to win the debate to increase their influence. So, they would only resort to stupidity when their rational arguments failed to carry the day. That is, feigned stupidity was employed defensively, as a last resort when rational arguments failed.

Today, the Zionist resorts to stupidity not when he fails to best his opponent in rational debate, but when he fails to have his opponent arrested.

Today, the Zionists truly believe that anyone who opposes them in debate should be arrested and thrown in jail. And, in Israel, and in many European states, and in Canada and Australia, if you oppose the Zionists in holocaust debate you will be arrested and thrown in jail. Thus in many parts of the world the Zionists do have the power of the state behind him.

In the rare spots on the internet where anti-Zionist arguments are not banned, the goal of the Zionists is not to win debates, as the Zionist does not feel he/she should be obliged to debate at all, and feels offended that anti-Zionist sentiments even see the light of day. Thus, the goal of the Zionists today is not to win debates but to end them. This allows for a much wider range of strategies.

Hitler claimed that Marxist Jews pretended to be stupid in debate, but he was talking about face to face debates, with no access to outside information, so Hitler could reference a current or historical event, and the Marxist Jew could claim to be unfamiliar with it, and hence invalidate Hitler's point. This is passive stupidity. But, passive stupidity doesn't fly on the internet, as a link can always be provided to counter it. So, what we see from the Zionists on this forum is aggressive stupidity, which fits with the general tone of their comments, and becomes not a defensive weapon to avoid losing a debate, but an offensive weapon not to win the debate but to end it, to trash it, it's like, sad to say, ******** on the living room floor, there is no counter for it. Thus the Zionist tries to accomplishe his objective, which is not to win the debate but to rout the opponent and end the debate.


Today, the Zionists gets to employ feigned stupidity, insults, name calling ('anti-semite', 'Nazi' are favorites), personal attacks, scatology, and evasion, not as defensive tactics but as an offensive strategy, because the goal is to end the debate and all these methods serve that end. The more idiotic and offensive the comments, the better. They don't 'resort' to these tactics, they employ them continuously as preferred methods of 'debate'.

 

[TSR]

Not before we have discussed the cross-examination of this pedal-driven brain smashing machine, the NMT established as fact.

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Affidavits are not cross examined. And *do* point out, anywhere in the transcripts or judgments, which says that this affidavit was accepted as fact.
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But my dear boy, even Jan van Pelt and Simone Veil admitted that any positive proof that the gassings happened does not exist! So who is making a fool of himself?

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You really make yourself look very foolish when you make assumptions about me personally -- you have not idea of my gender, just like you have no idea of my political or religious views.

In any case, even if you weren't lying with a quote mine spoonfed you by those who share your hate, neither of these two people speak on behalf of every historian in the world who has cited such proof.
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You want to discuss the shooting of the children by Lithuanians (according to the WC) who took revenge for what the communists did to them a year earlier?

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Yes, I'd like to see how you try to justify the killing of children for views you have yet to show their parents held.

But that's not your claim, is it: you think that the Jews, collectively, are at fault for what some individuals who may or may not been Jewish did before they were even born.

And you fail to see how irrational that attitude is.
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Or the hundreds of thousands of children that deliberate were killed by bombers in Germany or evaporated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Are you sure you want to discuss THAT in an attemot to look good? Boy oh boy...

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No, that would once again be off topic in a discussion of the HOlocaust.

But since you brought it up again: what about these acts excuses those of the Nazis and "locals" who helped them kill Jews?
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Partisans were killed, yes... a legal act BTW in wartime I believe.

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Then all you have to do is demonstrate these children and their parents engaged in partisan activity.

How many times are you going to run from this very basic foundation for your apologia?
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< snip off topic tu quoque which 9/11 doesn't understand is a tacit acknowledgement of the Nazi's guilt >

And the quote you delivered in your Clouseau like in your-own-foot-shooting-sillyness prooved that these Germans were taking actions against fellow Germans who had lowered themselves into cruel excess.

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But that's not what the problem was: Taubner was not authorizes to kill Jews (which you still have not understood the judgment makes clear is something so basic it barely warranted mention) because that was someone elses' job.
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[TSR]

< snip off topic rant>

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Is the reason that you do not respond with evidence supporting your lies about the Holocaust because you know that you are lying again and know that you will be caught out, or that your "betters" in the denier movement haven't spoon fed you the appropriate excuses yet?
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[Matthew Ellard]

Any sources to back these assertions up? Even your ideological palls say he lives in Moscow, the first address in the 'white world' for free speech concerning the H-word:

http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Jürgen Graf
http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/j/jürgen_graf.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Graf

And even Wikipedia says: "Graf and his publisher, Gerhard Förster, were prosecuted by a Swiss court for 'Holocaust denial' in July 1998 and was sentenced to a fine and 15 months imprisonment."

Nothing about other 'crimes'.

Matthew no doubt will quietly drop the subject.

1) I gave you Graf's current address for correspondence, (contact via PO Box 19395/7161, Tehran). You will note that Tehran is not in Russia. I didn't get his address of Wikipedia. He doesn't have a Moscow address. As you know, Graf has an Interpol arrest warrant on him and Russia is a member.


2) Graf must also pay 1,000 francs to a Basel theology professor as compensation or atonement for having mailed him a copy of one of his books with an allegedly offensive inscription.

(Graff was doing more than just writing books wasn't he?)

 

[Matthew Ellard]

When Matthew starts to make a quiz out of the H-word you can be sure he has something to hide. The keywords lead to a Nizkor text (Nizkor, this shabby one man operation) that supposedly refers to "Mail & Guardian Online, http://www.mg.co.za/". The reason that Matthew frames his allegations into quiz form is that this original Guardian link does not exist nor from any other MSM source.

But maybe Matthew can provide us with one.

Yes, perhaps I should. Let us start with the Warsaw Agricultural University and the confirmation that human fat was found in soap produced as evidence at the Nuremberg trials by the Danzig Anatomical Institute.

Source: Mail & Guardian Online,
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-10-06-tests-show-that-nazis-used-human-remains-to-make-soap
October 6, 2006
Tests show that Nazis used human remains to make soap

Warsaw, Poland
06 October 2006 04:41

The Nazis used human fat to make soap during World War II in a Nazi German medical academy located in what is now the Polish Baltic sea port city of Gdansk, Polish war crimes prosecutors confirmed on Friday, pointing to new laboratory tests.

Officials with Poland's Institute for National Remembrance (IPN) based their findings on a laboratory analysis of a piece of soap found in 1945 in the medical academy in Gdansk run by Nazi German Professor Rudolf Spanner.

A new laboratory analysis of the soap revealed human fat was one of its components, spokesperson for the Gdansk branch of the IPN, Paulina Szumera, told Deutsche Presse-Agentur in a telephone interview on Friday.

Commissioned by the IPN, Professor Andrzej Stolyhwo of the Warsaw Agricultural University found human tissue in the soap.

Let us have a look at the actual soap.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/soap-photos/ussr-393.jpg

Hmmmmmmm.....perhaps 9/11 thinks there are no eyewitnesses. Well he'd be wrong because.....
IMT document, USSR-272
IMT document USSR-393
IMT document USSR-197
IMT document USSR-272

Quote William Neely
"A machine for the manufacture of soap was completed some time in March or April 1944. The British prisoners of war had constructed the building in which it was housed in June 1942. The machine itself was installed by a civilian firm from Danzig by the name of AJRD. It consisted, as far as I remember, of an electrically heated tank in which bones of the corpses were mixed with some acid and melted down".

Quote John Henry Witten / International Military Tribunal / USSR document 264
"Corpses which had not been discected to any great extent had the tissue removed from the stomach, forearm and legs. Owing to the preservative mixture in which they had been stored the tissue came away from the bones very easily. The tissue was put into a boiler about the size of a kitchen table. After boiling the tissue was poured into white trays........The students told me that it was being used to make soap and that a chemical had to be added....."

Quote Sigmund Mazur
"I boiled the soap out of the bodies of women and men. The process of boiling alone took several days -- from 3 to 7. During two manufacturing processes, in which I directly participated, more than 25 kilograms of soap were produced. The amount of human fat necessary for these two processes was 70 to 80 kilograms collected from some 40 bodies. The finished soap then went to Professor Spanner,

Perhaps we should look at the recipe they used and some of the original documents.....

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Testi...rg_in_the_case_of_Danzig_Anatomical_Institute

and
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=29963

I have been having a long debate over this issue on the Skeptic Society's holocaust History debate page. The holocaust deniers on this forum used the following methods.
1) They tried to reintroduce the RIF soap which is not made from human fat and is unrelated.
2) They tried to quote articles from before the 2006 Warsaw University scientific testing of the Nurenberg evidence.
3) They quote museum web pages from before the 2006 university testing that says no soap was proven to contain human fat.

Nice diversion Matthew.

 

[little grey rabbit]

2) They tried to quote articles from before the 2006 Warsaw University scientific testing of the Nurenberg evidence.

This claim of scientific testing has not been published in any kind of journal, peer reviewed or otherwise.

The investigator involved will release neither his data or methodology (ie how he distinguished human fat from say pig or horse fat, each of which was common for homemade soap during the war). As such his claim, not directly made by him, but on his behalf is untestable.

Dr. Joachim Neander, expert on the subject who has published in German Studies Review on the subject has been in personal communications with the academic on the subject and says that for at least one sample they in fact could not distinguish between human or pig fat with the methodology used.

The claim is unverified.

 

[TSR]

Dr. Joachim Neander, expert on the subject who has published in German Studies Review on the subject has been in personal communications with the academic on the subject and says that for at least one sample they in fact could not distinguish between human or pig fat with the methodology used.

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You can actually *cite* him on the topic? Because over at the Cesspit, he seems to be arguing only that Jewish corpses weren't used, not that soap was not made?

And didn't you *just* say that the methodology was not released? Interrest that you can make claims about methodology under those conditions...
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The claim is unverified.

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Indeed, your claim is not.
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[little grey rabbit]

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You can actually *cite* him on the topic? Because over at the Cesspit, he seems to be arguing only that Jewish corpses weren't used, not that soap was not made?

And didn't you *just* say that the methodology was not released? Interrest that you can make claims about methodology under those conditions...
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Indeed, your claim is not.
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This was at RODOH, the search engine is hopeless there, so it would take me a while to find the thread.
Dr Neander, I think, is privately a little suspicious about the finding, when it came out he muttered darkly about a nationalistic turn of Poland under their recently deceased President. As you are aware he is not a denier, so it is not his practice to dispute findings issued by an authority figure - even if they deserve disputing.

I gave him a number of criteria I thought any such analysis would have to met to be valid - ie it had to define a signature of lipids sufficiently distinct to encompass genomic and diet induced variability and that I was not sure that a method based on lipid profiles alone would be able to distinguish from an animal with an omnivorous diet. Dr Neander then unofficially informed that at least one of the samples could not be clearly differentiated from pig, although he maintained the other sample could. He wasnt able to give details about how a positive test could eliminate other mammals.

I would love to get a copy of the report and the methodology used, so if you can obtain it, please send it to me (emails go unanswered).

Similarly I would love to get a response from the Hague archives if they really do keep bits of Soviet supplied soap in their vaults, so if you can get an email from the archive confirming that and providing the holding reference number, that would be fascinating too.

 

[VonKleist]

As sharp as Hitler's analysis was, it still needs to be modified a little for today's political environment and for holocaust debate.

The Zionists in Hitler's day were politically savvy and powerful, but they didn't have the power of the state behind them. yadda yadda yadda

But Saggy, you said the Jews were 'powerless' before 1948. Have you changed your mind?

 

[LashL]

Folks, please remember Rule 12 and do not personalize the argument.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Skeptic]

They were so powerless they mislead billions of people into believing six million of them disappeared by having tens of thousands, at least, of witnesses all lying in unison. Go figure.

 

[Skeptic]

As sharp as Hitler's analysis was...

Says it all, really, doesn't it?

I keep wondering why the holocaust deniers wish to deny the holocaust when it's obvious they think it was a good thing.

Actually, I don't wonder. As the nizkor web site notes, the National Socialist White People's Party (a "Nazis-R-us" group run by Harold Covington, most famous for his fall-down-laughing ridiculous entry to the Hitler lookalike contest) said that:

"The purpose of holocaust denial is to make Nazism acceptable again".

That's all there is to it, really.

P.S.

Covington's picture had me thinking -- again -- about the rather strange fact:

Ever noticed how practically none of the Nazis, proponents of the coming ideal race, are anything close to looking like the superior blond ideal they claim themselves to be part of? That was true of Hitler himself, let alone others.