Were the Southern States wrong to secede?

[Thunder]

Considering the Civil War caused the deaths of 500,000 Americans.

Considering the Civil War led to the physical destruction of much of the South's industrial, economic, and civil infrastructure.

Considering the Civil War was largely over the ability of human beings to own other human beings.

.....were the Southern States wrong to declare independence?

I think the answer, is a very clear YES!!!!!

they accomplished nothing...but blood, destruction, and tears.

and I would like to know if any Southern State legislatures have rescinded their declaration to leave the Union and join the Confederacy?

 

[John Jones]

Yes.

IIRC, when South Carolina seceded, one of the reasons given was the election of a regional presidential candidate (Lincoln). Never mind that most presidents up to that point were southerners.

and I would like to know if any Southern State legislatures have rescinded their declaration to leave the Union and join the Confederacy?

I would guess that most of them have - but that's just a guess.

 

[Thunder]

i think i would be pretty ashamed, if I knew my state decided to secede because they didn't want the Federal government telling them they could not own slaves and spread slavery.

 

[John Jones]

i think i would be pretty ashamed, if I knew my state decided to secede because they didn't want the Federal government telling them they could not own slaves and spread slavery.

Why?

I'm from Tennessee, and I never had any say in it. Neither did my relatives back to my great grandparents if not earlier.

My ancestors on my mother's side were from the "Free State of Winston (county) Alabama - which met to secede from the state of Alabama until the organizers were all arrested.

This may be only peripherally significant, but only 5% of southerners were slaveholders in the states where slavery was legal according to the 1860 census. Men were called to protect their state from the invading north.

 

[Thunder]

Men were called to protect their state from the invading north.

No. Southern men were conscripted by the Confederacy to defend an illegal and unConstitutional movement to secede from the USA, mainly over the issue of slavery.

The North was not "invading" the South. We ARE all one nation. The Union Army moved into the South to put down an illegal and immoral rebellion.

Abolition was sweeping the Western world, and the South didn't want to get with the program..due to economic needs and extreme racism.

 

[John Jones]

The North was not "invading" the South. We ARE all one nation. The Union Army moved into the South to put down an illegal and immoral rebellion.

Their first loyalty was to their home state.

 

[Thunder]

Their first loyalty was to their home state.

since when? did they swear allegiance to the state..or their nation?

what did the Pledge of Allegiance of Tennessee sound like?

did Tennessee have its own currency? its own foreign policy?

The Articles of Confederation were killed..you know. We were one nation and one people. Still are today.

The Southern states should have let the army just march through, put down the rebellion, and end it quickly.

Seceding because you want the right to own men, women, and children..is disgusting.

 

[John Jones]

since when? did they swear allegiance to the state..or their nation?

what did the Pledge of Allegiance of Tennessee sound like?

did Tennessee have its own currency? its own foreign policy?

The Articles of Confederation were killed..you know. We were one nation and one people. Still are today.

The Southern states should have let the army just march through, put down the rebellion, and end it quickly.

Seceding because you want the right to own men, women, and children..is disgusting.

I don't see how any of these questions/statements contradict my statement that their first loyalty was to their home state. It is self-evident.

Are you looking for antagonists where none exist? I refer you back to my first post on this thread (post#2)

 

[Thunder]

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic, One nation, indivisible".

seems pretty clear to me.

no mention of Tennessee, New York, Colorado, etc etc.

 

[John Jones]

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic, One nation, indivisible".

seems pretty clear to me.

no mention of Tennessee, New York, Colorado, etc etc.

Irrelevant. That pledge was first written in 1892 - 31 years after the start of the civil war.

I answered your question.

Now you're just trying to pick a fight.

 

[Cainkane1]

Considering the Civil War caused the deaths of 500,000 Americans.

Considering the Civil War led to the physical destruction of much of the South's industrial, economic, and civil infrastructure.

Considering the Civil War was largely over the ability of human beings to own other human beings.

.....were the Southern States wrong to declare independence?

I think the answer, is a very clear YES!!!!!

they accomplished nothing...but blood, destruction, and tears.

and I would like to know if any Southern State legislatures have rescinded their declaration to leave the Union and join the Confederacy?

But was it legally wrong for them to secede? Morally yes but unless I'm mistaken they did have the right to secede.

 

[gregthehammer]

A quick google tells me the pledge of allegiance did not come about until 1892.
(about 30 years after the civil war).


eta: I see John Jones already beat me to it...

 

[Thunder]

But was it legally wrong for them to secede? Morally yes but unless I'm mistaken they did have the right to secede.

the Constitition makes NO provisions for states to secede.

and FYI, in New York State, Staten Island wanted to secede from New York City. This would have required approval from the NYS legislature.

 

[John Jones]

the Constitition makes NO provisions for states to secede.

and FYI, in New York State, Staten Island wanted to secede from New York City. This would have required approval from the NYS legislature.

What, didn't Staten Island take the pledge of allegiance?

 

[John Jones]

the Constitition makes NO provisions for states to secede.

It also makes NO provision for parts of states to secede from other states and join the union, but we have West Virginia nontheless.

 

[gnome]

I hate to assign a moral value to it. Unquestionably, there were good people who fully believed in the Confederacy.

Was it a bad idea? I think so, given the cost in lives and tragedy. On the other hand, I've often wondered if the Union could have let them secede without intervention, would the Confederacy have rejoined willingly later as a result of global politics and economics?

All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.

Abraham Lincoln (Second Inaugural Address, 1865)

 

[Chaos]

Their first loyalty was to their home state.

And that excuses them?

Nobody is entitled to simply declaring "My country/state, right or wrong" and then hiding behind their patriotism to escape the implications of this.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Considering the Civil War caused the deaths of 500,000 Americans.

Considering the Civil War led to the physical destruction of much of the South's industrial, economic, and civil infrastructure.

Wars tend to do that. If the South had won, we would be saying the same about the North. It's all depends on who "wins".

Considering the Civil War was largely over the ability of human beings to own other human beings.

This is largely revisionist history. The issue of slavery became more of a rallying point during the war, not prior to it. It was in issue prior to the war, but it was not the reason for the war. The primary reason was the desire for Southern independence from perceived Northern control.

.....were the Southern States wrong to declare independence?

I think the answer, is a very clear YES!!!!!

they accomplished nothing...but blood, destruction, and tears.

I wager that if the Civil War had not happened, slavery would have continued much longer. Remember that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in Confederate states that refused to rejoin the Union. Lincoln enacted this under war powers granted him as Commander in Chief. It was an act largely intended to further weaken Southern states and increase support for the war in Northern states among those that opposed slavery.

Without the war, it would have taken legislation to free slaves. That would have been a slow process with Southern states resisting and Northern states not being the idealized anti-slavery saints that popular culture makes them out to be.

So, yes, the war did accomplish something, but at a very high price.

 

[Thunder]

It also makes NO provision for parts of states to secede from other states and join the union, but we have West Virginia nontheless.

well, Quebec can't just leave Canada and automatically join the USA. We have to approve it first.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Their first loyalty was to their home state.

Why?