Were the Southern States wrong to secede?

[kmortis]

That's a bit of a myth. See War of 1812. "The United States are" usage was common, as was the sentiment.

This point is brought forward with substantiation in Six Frigates.

Worth a read. Good book on that period, both for politics and naval/defense/budget/states versus gov't/Democract vs Federalists matters:

I'll have to read it. It's hard to find a good book on the 1812 period. Almost as if it's one that the US would like to forget.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'll have to read it. It's hard to find a good book on the 1812 period. Almost as if it's one that the US would like to forget.

The period covered is from about the end of the Revolutionary War to the end of the War of 1812, with some nice coverage, though not too much detail, of the Barbary Wars.

The focus of the book is the birth of the US Navy.

DR

 

[kmortis]

The focus of the book is the birth of the US Navy.

DR

When a Mama Squid and a Daddy Squid love each other VERRRRRY much....

 

[MaGZ]

Considering the Civil War caused the deaths of 500,000 Americans.

Considering the Civil War led to the physical destruction of much of the South's industrial, economic, and civil infrastructure.

Considering the Civil War was largely over the ability of human beings to own other human beings.

.....were the Southern States wrong to declare independence?

I think the answer, is a very clear YES!!!!!

they accomplished nothing...but blood, destruction, and tears.

and I would like to know if any Southern State legislatures have rescinded their declaration to leave the Union and join the Confederacy?

The South's decision to leave was no different than the American colonies attempt to break away from the British.

 

[MaGZ]

No. Southern men were conscripted by the Confederacy to defend an illegal and unConstitutional movement to secede from the USA, mainly over the issue of slavery.

The North was not "invading" the South. We ARE all one nation. The Union Army moved into the South to put down an illegal and immoral rebellion.

Abolition was sweeping the Western world, and the South didn't want to get with the program..due to economic needs and extreme racism.

When will the Union Army move into Arizona?

 

[MaGZ]

since when? did they swear allegiance to the state..or their nation?

what did the Pledge of Allegiance of Tennessee sound like?

did Tennessee have its own currency? its own foreign policy?

The Articles of Confederation were killed..you know. We were one nation and one people. Still are today.

The Southern states should have let the army just march through, put down the rebellion, and end it quickly.

Seceding because you want the right to own men, women, and children..is disgusting.

Some would claim the USA became one nation after the Civil War.

That is the meaning of the title of the film "The Birth of a Nation".

 

[MaGZ]

But was it legally wrong for them to secede? Morally yes but unless I'm mistaken they did have the right to secede.

Was it morally wrong for the American colonies to go into rebellion?

 

[MaGZ]

I hate to assign a moral value to it. Unquestionably, there were good people who fully believed in the Confederacy.

Was it a bad idea? I think so, given the cost in lives and tragedy. On the other hand, I've often wondered if the Union could have let them secede without intervention, would the Confederacy have rejoined willingly later as a result of global politics and economics?



Abraham Lincoln (Second Inaugural Address, 1865)

Was it a bad idea for the Allies to fought WWI and WWII given the cost in lives and tragedy?

 

[MaGZ]

It's a good thing that I never took such a position.

I'm not making excuses for anything, nor am I attempting to escape the implications of the south's secession. The Confederacy came down on the wrong side and lost.

See post #2 in this thread.

How can you tell the right side and the wrong side of any war?

Who was on the right side of the First World War?

 

[MaGZ]

I give up. Mid eighteenth-century culture? The same reason Northern soldiers also fought under the banners and names of their respective states?

Before anyone else misunderstands, I don't support slavery or the secession of the confederate states, and I'm not going to be put into a position of having to defend them.

This is at least the third time I've said it, so stop implying otherwise.

If you were an American patriot of 1776 then you supported slavery.

 

[KingMerv00]

Was it morally wrong for the American colonies to go into rebellion?

Your question is irrelvant.

If we say "yes", the Civil War could be morally wrong.

If we say "no", the Civil War could be morally wrong.

 

[MaGZ]

As ugly as the war was, the question of the right of states to secede had to be settled at some point. Prior to the war it was an open question; after the war not so much.

I think it is still an open question.

Does killing every member of the Supreme Court settle legal questions?

 

[MaGZ]

The majority of the officers of the Confederacy were trained at West Point, where they took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of The United States. They were then commissioned as officers into the armed forces of The United States.
These men were not only traitorous criminals, they were liars and oath-breakers.
It really pisses me off when I hear someone describe Robert E. Lee as "honorable."

Do you consider General Sherman to have been honorable?

 

[MaGZ]

Yeah, the whole thing was weird. It made the papers.

Seriously, though, they got married in Jersey City and then drove north towards Buffalo. They stopped for the night somewhere along the way. Early the next morning, the owner of the hotel knocked on their door and said, "Who are you and what's your nationality?" And then threw them out. The amazing thing about this story, to me, is that my grandparents didn't think anything of it at all. That was just what being Jewish meant back then.





What are you talking about? I'm from New York. A few posts up, I made such a strong statement about defending the union that a guy put me on ignore.

Nobody in this thread has even hinted that they believe that secesion or nullification or anything else is tolerable or even possible today.

I arrived late.

 

[TraneWreck]

If you were an American patriot of 1776 then you supported slavery.

Chances are you're correct, in a statistical sense. The two didn't necessarily follow.

One could, for example, oppose slavery but think independence was better than the status quo even if slavery continued.

You may have heard of this gentleman:

http://www.lva.virginia.gov/lib-edu/education/psd/nation/henry1773.htm

Recall that slavery was a massive issue in the Constitutional conventions. These occured AFTER independence, meaning that some number of "Patriots" were arguing against the institution. They unfortunately lost.

 

[Paulhoff]

The South's decision to leave was no different than the American colonies attempt to break away from the British.

I didn't know that the American colonies asked to join the British.

Paul

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The South's decision to leave was no different than the American colonies attempt to break away from the British.

Attempt ?

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

The South's decision to leave was no different than the American colonies attempt to break away from the British.

Urr.. right. Except that:
- The southern states had full representation in the national government, whereas the colonies had very little
- The people in the south got to vote for their national leader, whereas the colonies' leader was given to them through heredity
- The people in the south got to vote for their own state governments and governors, whereas colonial governments were fully or partially installed by the national government
- The colonists were instituting an entirely different form of government, whereas the confederacy was pretty much just trying to protect the right to own slaves
- In the three decades prior to the civil war, the southern-allied Democratic party controlled the House of Representatives for 18 of those years, the Senate for 24 of those years, and the Presidency for 18 of those years, whereas in the 30 years prior to the American Revolution, the American colonists had little to no say in British national politics

Aside from all that, though, yeah... they're very similar.

 

[kmortis]

Urr.. right. Except that:
- The southern states had full representation in the national government, whereas the colonies had very little
- The people in the south got to vote for their national leader, whereas the colonies' leader was given to them through heredity
- The people in the south got to vote for their own state governments and governors, whereas colonial governments were fully or partially installed by the national government
- The colonists were instituting an entirely different form of government, whereas the confederacy was pretty much just trying to protect the right to own slaves
- In the three decades prior to the civil war, the southern-allied Democratic party controlled the House of Representatives for 18 of those years, the Senate for 24 of those years, and the Presidency for 18 of those years, whereas in the 30 years prior to the American Revolution, the American colonists had little to no say in British national politics

Aside from all that, though, yeah... they're very similar.

[JPF]But what have the Romans ever done for us?[/JPF]

 

[kookbreaker]

Do you consider General Sherman to have been honorable?

Any reason we should not?