The Freeman Movement and England

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dudalb said:
Looks as if some American FOTLers have made the news bigtime:


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5783884#post5783884

The following rant that is from the group in question's website is pure FOTL looniness.
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While that entire quote was fun, this was my favorite bit
Instantly vest all mortgages, auto loans and personal business loans “issued” by members of the Fed. The state shall hold no paper on, or debts against, the sovereign People, directly or through its agencies and licensed banking institutions.
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Yeah, the financial collapse due to the credit crisis was not quite complete, lets just implement this and finish it once and for all.
 
dudalb said:
Looks as if some American FOTLers have made the news bigtime:

In place of all of the above, substitute sovereign identification, diplomatic immunity and sovereign passports to facilitate safe passage throughout the world free from corporate State molestation and terror.
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In the famous words of Danny Glover "It's just been revoked!"

Norm
 
I'm continually fascinated by the bizarre FOTLer re-imagining of the common law. (And I missed Especially's brief return. Dammit!). I don't know if it's been mentioned previously in this thread, but there are strong echoes in the FOTLer common law/statute dichotomy of the historical equity/common law dichotomy.

The courts of equity (also known as the Court of Chancery) were a forum where subjects could appeal to things like natural law and natural justice and get an equitable remedy from the King's Chancellor. This was necessary because the rigidity of stare decisis - i.e., precedent - meant that sometimes the common law produced unjust results. Equity allowed the Chancellor to craft a remedy based on the discretion of his conscience or on whatever higher principle was adverted to rather than the constraints of common law precedent. Common law and equity have been merged in modern common law jurisdictions, which is why we can seek equitable remedies in civil proceedings.

The interesting thing for FOTL woo is that common law was the problem to which equity was the solution. When the common law went against natural justice, one had to appeal to equity. These days, FOTLers have a make-believe quasi-natural justice idea of the common law that is the solution to the "problem" of statutory law. But the rhetoric (besides all the magical secret language jargon) is strikingly similar. They are seeking an equitable remedy to what are perceived injustices in the status quo legal system.

These folks are a legal sociologist's wet dream.
 
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(And I missed Especially's brief return. Dammit!).
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Hes over on TPUC posting as notwattyler and he is as daft as ever.
Apparently we are all roman citizens in the eyes of the law :rolleyes:

JB
 
Well, I've had a fun afternoon with a FOTL trial. Highlights include:-
Defendant trying to introduce an enormously long document that by tortuous logic "proves" the court don't have jurisdiction. There is no basis for its admission so it doesn't go in.
Defendant declaring that he's making the court a court of record which turns out to be the signal for his mate to turn on the tape recorder. When this is later discovered and confiscated the defendant accuses everyone of various crimes.
Defendant's fanclub refusing to stand up when magistrates enter and leave. They are a little subdued when both the usher and the chair describe them as lacking in common courtesy. A lot more subdued when every spare chair is occupied by a burly police officer.
When the defendant is asked to identify himself and begins the usual spiel waving his birth-certificate the prosecutor interrupts him and says as everyone knows who he is why don't we begin the trial. Magistrates agree and leave the defendant nonplused for a bit. He soon starts shouting "objection" every few words and is treated by the prosecutor with crushing disdain.
Somehow the first police officer's examination in chief is concluded. This should be the defendant's chance to cross-examine. But no he decides to challenge the court's jurisdiction instead and starts demanding the names of the magistrates and whether the court is common-law or admiralty.
Upshot is the case has gone part-heard halfway through the first witness...
 
Pikachu said:
Well, I've had a fun afternoon with a FOTL trial. Highlights include:-
Defendant trying to introduce an enormously long document that by tortuous logic "proves" the court don't have jurisdiction. There is no basis for its admission so it doesn't go in.
Defendant declaring that he's making the court a court of record which turns out to be the signal for his mate to turn on the tape recorder. When this is later discovered and confiscated the defendant accuses everyone of various crimes.
Defendant's fanclub refusing to stand up when magistrates enter and leave. They are a little subdued when both the usher and the chair describe them as lacking in common courtesy. A lot more subdued when every spare chair is occupied by a burly police officer.
When the defendant is asked to identify himself and begins the usual spiel waving his birth-certificate the prosecutor interrupts him and says as everyone knows who he is why don't we begin the trial. Magistrates agree and leave the defendant nonplused for a bit. He soon starts shouting "objection" every few words and is treated by the prosecutor with crushing disdain.
Somehow the first police officer's examination in chief is concluded. This should be the defendant's chance to cross-examine. But no he decides to challenge the court's jurisdiction instead and starts demanding the names of the magistrates and whether the court is common-law or admiralty.
Upshot is the case has gone part-heard halfway through the first witness...
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I wish it were permissible to record scenes like this. It would serve as an excellent example to budding FOTLers of what actually happens when they try to put their noise into practice. :/
 
remirol said:
I wish it were permissible to record scenes like this. It would serve as an excellent example to budding FOTLers of what actually happens when they try to put their noise into practice. :/
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THey take that old saying about "A person who acts as their own attorney has a fool for a client" to a whole new level.
 
For the last 5 days, there has been a forum battle going on at this address between Rob Menard and his freemen cult and some locals.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/boards/thread.aspx?thrid=509096&topid=121&action=msgsvd&pg=27

It is the forum of a small city newspaper in Canada, The St Catherines Standard, where one of these freemen was just shot down in court and then ranted about it to the local paper and remains super arrogant and defiant. Menard (Canadian freeman leader) and his cult are in there obsessed for some reason with trying to harrass and convert everyone there and is relentlessly attacking everyone on the forums. He's even supposedly using this for his next movie in production, he claims.

A friend of mind, knowing i'm a skeptic asked me for help, I wish I could help them but personally I don't know much about these freemen yet. If any of you that are well versed in this freemen nonsense, or on Menard, could help them, I'm sure they would appreciate it because they don't want this cult taking hold in their community. These freemen are crazy and for some reason they are obsessed with convert on this small town newspaper forum and it's getting totally out of hand with 700 posts in just days.
 
remirol said:
I wish it were permissible to record scenes like this. It would serve as an excellent example to budding FOTLers of what actually happens when they try to put their noise into practice. :/
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There are a few on YouTube. I don't have any direct links at hand, but I've watched at least three or four of 'em. Definitely good for a giggle. Although, it bugs me that these knuckleheads waste so much time of an already over-burdened court system.
 
The Platypus said:
For the last 5 days, there has been a forum battle going on at this address between Rob Menard and his freemen cult and some locals.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/boards/thread.aspx?thrid=509096&topid=121&action=msgsvd&pg=27

It is the forum of a small city newspaper in Canada, The St Catherines Standard, where one of these freemen was just shot down in court and then ranted about it to the local paper and remains super arrogant and defiant. Menard (Canadian freeman leader) and his cult are in there obsessed for some reason with trying to harrass and convert everyone there and is relentlessly attacking everyone on the forums. He's even supposedly using this for his next movie in production, he claims.

A friend of mind, knowing i'm a skeptic asked me for help, I wish I could help them but personally I don't know much about these freemen yet. If any of you that are well versed in this freemen nonsense, or on Menard, could help them, I'm sure they would appreciate it because they don't want this cult taking hold in their community. These freemen are crazy and for some reason they are obsessed with convert on this small town newspaper forum and it's getting totally out of hand with 700 posts in just days.
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You could point them to Rob's first substantive post in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5196518#post5196518

They can read the successful debunking results for themselves. He didn't last long until declaring victory and fleeing.
 
joe911 said:
I really don't know what to think about this :eye-poppi:. It looks like he's watched V for vendetta way to many times.


I was abducted.. by yobs that I believe/ presume to be either serving Police Officers or CSOs/ browncoats
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Now, I love Firefly. But I do realise that's it's fiction, is set several hundred years in the future, in a different solar system, and most importantly that browncoats were not exactly on the side of the establishment.
 
Today I watched something very sad. A FOTL clutching his birth certificate standing in the secure dock.
A few months ago when he was a "normal" criminal he'd been sentenced to a community sentence. Probation supervision and some unpaid work. Apparently he'd been doing very well on the order. Then about halfway through he was converted to FOTL. No longer did he recognise that Probation had any jurisdiction over a sovereign citizen such as himself. He only turned up to preach FOTL to them.
Probation had to take him back to court. But he felt himself free not to turn up. So a warrant was issued and the police had to bring him (and his birth-certificate).
Probation can't cope with him any more so he has to be resentenced. He can't be fined because he'd have to sign permission for the money to come out of his benefits.
So the Judge has to do the only thing left - send him to prison.
This was sad. The defendant while technically sane (the judge had him examined) is clearly not playing with a full deck. He kept getting the FOTL responses wrong (I found myself biting my tongue not to jump up and correct him).
Probation supervision was helping this man, he was getting work experience and sorting his life out. Now he's been infected with FOTL, he's a jailbird and his chances of sorting his life out are ruined.
 
Pikachu said:
Today I watched something very sad. A FOTL clutching his birth certificate standing in the secure dock [...] Now he's been infected with FOTL, he's a jailbird and his chances of sorting his life out are ruined.
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That is sad. If you don't mind my asking, where was this and in what context were you watching it?

Is there any possibility he could come back and tell the judge that he's sorry he was being an idiot?
 
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drkitten
It was a magistrates' court in the UK. I was prosecuting other matters in the same court.
The Judge in question is known for being compassionate but he'd tried everything - psychiatric checks, even appointed the guy a solicitor to represent his point of view and try to talk to him. Not a wet-behind-the-ears solicitor either a really senior one from a top criminal defence firm. So no I think the sentence will stand.
You have to be in court with these people to realise how deep it goes. At the trial I witnessed a few days ago a very experienced advocate who hadn't seen them before was spooked by the claque describing their behaviour as "brainwashed". They react almost as one - this may be hyperbolic - but I'm reminded of descriptions of the Manson trial where the girls echoed whatever Charlie did.
Drink the Koolaid (is that like Ribena by the way?), remove your genitals its an internet cult.
 
Pikachu said:
Today I watched something very sad. A FOTL clutching his birth certificate standing in the secure dock.
A few months ago when he was a "normal" criminal he'd been sentenced to a community sentence. Probation supervision and some unpaid work. Apparently he'd been doing very well on the order. Then about halfway through he was converted to FOTL. No longer did he recognise that Probation had any jurisdiction over a sovereign citizen such as himself. He only turned up to preach FOTL to them.
Probation had to take him back to court. But he felt himself free not to turn up. So a warrant was issued and the police had to bring him (and his birth-certificate).
Probation can't cope with him any more so he has to be resentenced. He can't be fined because he'd have to sign permission for the money to come out of his benefits.
So the Judge has to do the only thing left - send him to prison.
This was sad. The defendant while technically sane (the judge had him examined) is clearly not playing with a full deck. He kept getting the FOTL responses wrong (I found myself biting my tongue not to jump up and correct him).
Probation supervision was helping this man, he was getting work experience and sorting his life out. Now he's been infected with FOTL, he's a jailbird and his chances of sorting his life out are ruined.
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This story makes me angry. Not at the guy you describe, but at the people who infected his mind.
 
And Rob Menard and John Harris remain free while another "guinea pig" bites the dust.
Will the others learn from it, of course not, they will say the courts and judges are criminals and acted unlawfully.

This SH##E needs stopping ASAP

JB
 
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