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Damned audiophiles

Money definitely makes a difference in speakers and headphones - which doesn't mean that the more expensive model is necessarily better, but the cheapest models are guaranteed to be rubbish.

It makes some difference in amplifiers, though less than it used to.

Everything they tell you about CD players, though, is lies.
 
PixyMisa said:
Money definitely makes a difference in speakers and headphones - which doesn't mean that the more expensive model is necessarily better, but the cheapest models are guaranteed to be rubbish.

It makes some difference in amplifiers, though less than it used to.
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I have enough of a background in electronics to be dangerous.

When I was shopping for the last audiophile system (30 years ago, still using most of it) I got the idea that evaluating the amp and speakers together had value and I really think the power amp belongs inside the speaker cabinet. This allows the designer to control the amp/speaker cone system as a servo loop in a way that buying the amp and speakers seperatly and connecting them by a random length of wire can't. (I don't waste money on magic cables.)

Can any real engineers here comment?
 
My opinion is that you don't have to play a CD more than once, when you rip it onto a hard disk. Thereafter you send it through a high-end computer sound card to your good amplifier and really good speakers, and you are done.
 
PixyMisa said:
Money definitely makes a difference in speakers and headphones - which doesn't mean that the more expensive model is necessarily better, but the cheapest models are guaranteed to be rubbish.

It makes some difference in amplifiers, though less than it used to.

Everything they tell you about CD players, though, is lies.
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I can definitely hear the difference between amps. The Cambridge Audio one didn't sound as good as the Rotel on the same set of speakers.

Hahaha to you comment on CD players. :) Seems likely to me.
 
Almo said:
I can definitely hear the difference between amps. The Cambridge Audio one didn't sound as good as the Rotel on the same set of speakers.
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There is a $10,000 challenge saying you cannot.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

All it takes for two amps to sound "different" is about a 1dB difference in volume setting between the two - less than your ear can discern. (I don't remember the actual dB rating - i pulled 1dB out of my posterier - the point is a very small amount you will not notice as "hey, this one is turned up louder")

The caveat of course is that the amplifiers be designed to run flat (a guitar amp used for heavy metal ain't going to sound like your home stereo receiver), and that the inputs and outputs are within the rated specs for the amp. That describes just about every consumer amp that exists.
 
roger said:
There is a $10,000 challenge saying you cannot.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

All it takes for two amps to sound "different" is about a 1dB difference in volume setting between the two - less than your ear can discern. (I don't remember the actual dB rating - i pulled 1dB out of my posterier - the point is a very small amount you will not notice as "hey, this one is turned up louder")

The caveat of course is that the amplifiers be designed to run flat (a guitar amp used for heavy metal ain't going to sound like your home stereo receiver), and that the inputs and outputs are within the rated specs for the amp. That describes just about every consumer amp that exists.
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Thanks for the link and the info. Will read it carefully.
 
If one amp sounds worse than another, turn it up until it sounds the same :).

Modern solid state amps differ in quality, power, weight, aesthetics, various features like overload protection, inputs etc. - but not in sound quality when operating normally under a load they're fully capable of driving.
 
BenBurch said:
My opinion is that you don't have to play a CD more than once, when you rip it onto a hard disk. Thereafter you send it through a high-end computer sound card to your good amplifier and really good speakers, and you are done.
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x2. That is very true. If you can have your computer (or any computer you have) as your main audio source, forget about a CD player. You ought to have a decent audio card in that computer though, or a decent DAC connected to it.

Another option, which Novaphile already sort of suggested in his post: if you have a decent AV receiver, you can use any cheapo DVD player (like the one you might already have) as your main CD player. Connect the digital audio output of that DVD player to one of the digital audio inputs of the receiver. In that setup, the DAC in the receiver will be the one producing the analog audio you'll listen to. You might only need a digital conection between that player and your receiver (if you don't have it already), and you should better check the audio settings in your DVD player to make sure it sends full PCM digital audio signals to that digital audio out when it applies. Also, remove any audio transformations, just use the original. No "movies", "rock", "night audio mode", "audio effects" or things like that.


However...

macdoc said:
OPPO sort of showed up the videophiles as well tho they did use top notch components but at an incredible price point...

Not sure where the OPPO of the audio end lies these days.
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That is the brand I immediately thought of as a recommendation when reading this thread title. If I wanted to buy a dedicated audio source, I would not buy just a CD player, but a universal player, and OPPO would very likely be the one I'd purchase. They have a number of full HD Blu-ray players now, which are of course also DVD players, and CD players, and pretty much "anything audio" players. One of these would be my choice. They have them on Amazon, btw:

http://www.oppodigital.com/
 
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sol invictus said:
I've been pretty unhappy with my OPPO DVD player (HD71). The remote is awful, it's very slow to respond to things like the eject button, very slow to decide it can't read a scratched CD, etc.
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Sorry about it. Haven't heard of such bad feedback, good to know.

About scratched CD's, you can easily fix them manually, without any especial gadgets. I use very fine sandpaper, 1200 and then 1500, to actually scratch the CD further, all over its surface, but always moving the sandpaper from the center towards the outer rim of the CD (never going around in circles), and always using a bit of water on the sandpaper. Then use a cotton cloth to go over the surface of the CD in the same manner, but with a bit of toothpaste or brasso on the cloth. This final "polishing" with the cotton cloth usually requires a bit of pressure, even up to you hearing a bit of squeaking with each pass. It should be done on a very flat and solid surface, and with a large enough napkin under the CD. Then clean up with a clean cloth (always in the same direction, from center to border,) and done. Have fixed several CD's and DVD's this way. Here's a link with similar advice on how to fix scratched CD's. Look it up, there are several such pages with minor variations. Try it with a Cd you don't care much about first; the sandpaper and polishing technique might take a couple of CDs to be done adequately with no fear.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Scratched-CD
 
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sol invictus said:
If one amp sounds worse than another, turn it up until it sounds the same :).

Modern solid state amps differ in quality, power, weight, aesthetics, various features like overload protection, inputs etc. - but not in sound quality when operating normally under a load they're fully capable of driving.
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Even Radio Shack ? :):)
 
Flanders and Swann had the audiophiles' number as long ago as the late 50s, in their Song of Reproduction:

Flanders (criticizing): All the highest notes' neither sharp nor flat!
Swann (apologetic): [But] the ear can't hear as high as that!
Flanders: Still, we ought to please any passing bat...

(They get "House and Garden" folks too in that album: how do you know your neighbor is really into fashionable interior decor? Simple: the garden's full of furniture -- and the house is full of plants.)
 
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rsaavedra said:
Sorry about it. Haven't heard of such bad feedback, good to know.

About scratched CD's, you can easily fix them manually, without any especial gadgets. I use very fine sandpaper, 1200 and then 1500, to actually scratch the CD further, all over its surface, but always moving the sandpaper from the center towards the outer rim of the CD (never going around in circles),
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The computer stores sell a kit with the right abrasives and grit-free cloths and a jig for holding the CD carefully. It Costs $10-$15US. The "painted" side of the CD can be damaged, making the CD unreadable and it can't be fixed. The jig prevents that from happening.

It works for me, saved my butt. I once had a computer opened up on the bench with the CD player dangling by the power and data cables. I had an expensive-to-replace software disk in the player. At some point I moved the CD drive while the CD was spinning and the gyro effect made the R/W heads dig a trench in the CD all the way around. Ouch. With nothing to lose, I polished the heck out of that CD and eventually was able to read it just fine. It took hours.
 
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Sceptic is right about Flanders & Swan - "But I never did care for music much, It's the high fidelity!" - still as true today as it was then :D

I personally have an audiophile system, which sounds wonderful, and no doubt cost a lot more than it should, but unless you have understanding neighbours, and you regularly want to spend hours listening to music where the musicians seem to be in the room with you (and in my experience most people don't), then a simple, low cost music streaming system like the Logitech SqueezeBox, mentioned by Sol, playing good quality MP3s (192k or above) should suffice.

CD players are 'so last century' - these days ripping CDs to hard disk storage and streaming to networked media players around the house is the way to go. For more discerning listeners, downloading hi-resolution and studio master recordings as FLAC or WAVs and playing them through a high quality media streamer like one of Linn's DS range (e.g. Sneaky DS and upwards) is the ticket.

For all reasonable quality audio systems, the main problem seems to be finding good quality recordings to play - so much recent stuff has all the dynamic range compressed out of it, and finding good quality broadcast music (DAB, FM, internet) is a depressing pursuit too.

Ultimately, your ears and your wallet are your guides - get as many listening demos as you can bear and go from there. Some dealers will let you have kit to demo at home, which is ideal, but remember that they do so because they know you're more likely to buy from them.
 
BigAl said:
The computer stores sell a kit with the right abrasives and grit-free cloths and a jig for holding the CD carefully. It Costs $10-$15US. The "painted" side of the CD can be damaged, making the CD unreadable and it can't be fixed. The jig prevents that from happening.

It works for me, saved my butt. I once had a computer opened up on the bench with the CD player dangling by the power and data cables. I had an expensive-to-replace software disk in the player. At some point I moved the CD drive while the CD was spinning and the gyro effect made the R/W heads dig a trench in the CD all the way around. Ouch. With nothing to lose, I polished the heck out of that CD and eventually was able to read it just fine. It took hours.
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My advice is that for any very valuable and/or often-used CD you own, you should burn copies, and use the copies rather than the originals. Keep the originals in a safe storage place so you still have a perfect source for new copies when the old ones degrade. ;)

dlorde said:
CD players are 'so last century' - these days ripping CDs to hard disk storage and streaming to networked media players around the house is the way to go. For more discerning listeners, downloading hi-resolution and studio master recordings as FLAC or WAVs and playing them through a high quality media streamer like one of Linn's DS range (e.g. Sneaky DS and upwards) is the ticket.

For all reasonable quality audio systems, the main problem seems to be finding good quality recordings to play - so much recent stuff has all the dynamic range compressed out of it, and finding good quality broadcast music (DAB, FM, internet) is a depressing pursuit too.
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Quoted for truth.
 
dlorde said:
(...)

Ultimately, your ears and your wallet are your guides - (...)
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And remember that without a properly controlled double-blind test, your ears can not be trusted. At all. No, not even YOUR ears. Your ears are no better than the ears of reviewers of audio equipment... :o
 
Halsu said:
IMHO, the most important things are room acoustics, speaker placement and the speakers themselves. These three things have a big effect on the way stuff sounds. Everything else is pretty irrelevant - almost all CD players, amplifiers, cables and so on are "plenty good enough", and the differences between them are negligible compared to the threesome.
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I'm in the biz, and agree totally. When I was in college I had a lot of audiophile friends yet one of the best-sounding systems used the 1975 equivalent to these RatShack cubes dangling in macrame ouches in the corners of the ceiling. But he was an engineer and had calculated the precise places they should dangle.

Good D/As help, too. My CD player is an 18-yr-old Revox that cost a former boss an arm and a leg in '92 and it still sounds REALLY good.

I disagree that as we age and hear worse we can scrimp. I've found that my poor ears need as much help as I can give them, within my nearly-nonexistent budget. And just because we can't "hear" those ultrasonic sounds (most noticeable in the the sound of cymbals, the Achilles heel of 128kbps MP3s, which can't even reproduce their normal range as anything but white noise) doesn't mean we can necessarily ignore them.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ashon/audio/Ultrasonics.htm
 
BigAl said:
The computer stores sell a kit with the right abrasives and grit-free cloths and a jig for holding the CD carefully. It Costs $10-$15US. The "painted" side of the CD can be damaged, making the CD unreadable and it can't be fixed. The jig prevents that from happening.
Click to expand...

Well, I never trusted those gadgets because I remember hearing lots of negative feedback from people who had purchase the earlier models that were available (this was several years ago,) and they never seemed to have worked very well, actually they rather damaged the CDs even more. Probably the current ones do work well, of course.

Indeed it's important to never compromise the reverse of the CD or DVD, that "painted" side. It is so critical that it almost seems like a flaw in the design of the CD, to have such a sensitive surface with so little protection. That's why with the manual procedure it's important to use a napkin under the disk, as a sort of cushion (a thick kitchen towel napkin is what I've used.) And the whole thing should be done on a very flat and solid surface.
 
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