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The Deluge

Is or is not Pluto a planet? How many hundreds of years in between Isaac Newton and Einstein's relativity. When you state, quite emphatically that the Bible can't possibly be right because science says it is wrong it is the same nonsense as religion saying science can't be right because the Bible says it is wrong. It is interpretation. Nothing more. No amount of certainty, smugness or polemic pontification can change that.
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There is nothing in -science- that can't be questioned and altered and disproved and just plain tossed out as gibberish.
Phologiston, for one.
And as science improves itself thru self-examination, it is normal to change designations of objects, such as Pluto, to fit more exact standards for the nomenclature.
There are many disciplines in science, and these when talking about a common subject must lead to the same conclusions in areas of overlapping, such as dating the earth, to be acceptable.
There's nothing that's only true on Tuesday, in science.
 
Is or is not Pluto a planet? How many hundreds of years in between Isaac Newton and Einstein's relativity. When you state, quite emphatically that the Bible can't possibly be right because science says it is wrong it is the same nonsense as religion saying science can't be right because the Bible says it is wrong. It is interpretation. Nothing more. No amount of certainty, smugness or polemic pontification can change that.
Science does not say it is wrong, it shows why it can't be right.

As for Pluto, we humans make the meanings of words, not the planets, and I agree that Pluto is not a planet. Its orbit is on the main plane like all the other planets, also its orbit is too elliptic. It is now a dwarf planet.

http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/the-solar-system/dwarf-planets/

Again unlike the bible was is only changed by mistakes in the rewriting of it. It is long overdue for an update.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Is or is not Pluto a planet? How many hundreds of years in between Isaac Newton and Einstein's relativity. When you state, quite emphatically that the Bible can't possibly be right because science says it is wrong it is the same nonsense as religion saying science can't be right because the Bible says it is wrong. It is interpretation. Nothing more. No amount of certainty, smugness or polemic pontification can change that.

Only thing is, no one is saying that the Bible "can't possibly be right" and certainly not because "Science says it's wrong".

The real way of stating it would be: "The Bible is most likely not true" and the reason is "because all evidence points toward it being nothing but a bunch of stories made up by human beings".


But since you're already getting a caricaturesque concept of science, of skepticism, of how and why we do not take things such as the Bible, as serious sources; then I'm not amazed you take your Bible seriously.
 
Gday,

I know when to interpret the Bible as being metaphorical, allegorical or figurative.

OK then, tell us some examples.


For example Adam.

A good example.
So, do YOU believe Adam was metaphorical, allegorical or figurative ?


Some say Adam was allegorical because evolutionary science goes against a literal interpretation, but Adam was listed in the genealogy and allegorical figures aren't listed there, especially as having children.

SOME say he was allegorical?

But you can't actually say out loud that you believe he was literal?

Why not?

Are you so embarrased to believe literally in Adam and Eve that you can't admit it openly?


K.
 
You really think that never happens. Scientists are incorruptible,

Newton didn't cheat a little bit on his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Paul? Maybe just a little? You think maybe as president of the Royal Society he didn't review Leibniz's work anonymously in a review in the Philosophical Transactions - just a little . . . Dr. Arnold S. Relman, an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine: “What kind of protection against fraud does peer review offer? Little or none. Fraudulent work was published in peer-reviewed journals, some with very exacting standards. In the case of the two papers we published, no suggestion of dishonesty was raised by any of the referees or editors.”

Science 83: “The history of science is replete with personal prejudices, misleading philosophical themes, miscast players. . . . I suspect all scientists have been guilty of prejudice at times in their research.”

The danger in science making the assumption that it is incorruptible is exactly the same one religion is susceptible to and being blissfully ignorant to it or insisting it doesn't happen is equally as dangerous. It isn't about "science" or "religion" or "politics," it is about people.


This is where science and religion differ in so many respects. If someone publishes a fraudulent study, say on vaccinations, there are numerous safeguards. Other scientists might review the study and prove that it was fraudulent. Some scientists may repeat the study and arrive at different results. If enough tests arrive at different results, then we know the original was incorrect. Finally, if a fraudulent vaccination enters the market, empirical data will show that it doesn't work and we need to go back to the drawing board.

Religion doesn't have these safeguards. If someone introduces a fraudulent religion, we can speculate as to why that religion is incorrect, but we can't take it further than that. We can't test if there's a god or gods. Additionally, we can't point to a certain religion and say, "looks like they got it right," like we could a vaccine, based on empirical evidence.

Basically, science has provided useful results for as long as humans have been around. What results does religion provide?
 
<snip>

The Bible fascinates me, but you have to realize that in this thread what I am trying to do is see where science is coming from. I have never had much interest in science but I do know that I can't take my very limited knowledge of science and make it look like it agrees with the Bible's account of the flood if it doesn't do that, but that doesn't really mean a great deal to me. I want to know why science doesn't agree. That is why I asked for questions instead of opening up with statements about what the Bible says about it.

Well, you've been shown why science doesn't agree. Namely, that thousands upon thousands of scientific observations, acquired via different methods, during several centuries, by thousands of independent scientist, all show that your interpretation of the bible could not have happened. You can show some of those scientist were wrong, but you have no hope of overturning them all.

And that's the end of it. Science doesn't agree with your interpretation of the bible, and it never will. There's nothing you can do about it; a person who believes in science will never believe the bible is a factual document.

The point of all this is simple: the bible and science contradict each other. Therefore, they cannot both be correct, so one of them has to be false. The question is which.

It's pretty clear that you believe the bible to be correct, and also that science is worthless. You've probably noticed that most people on these forums think the opposite. It might be instructive to see why.

For my part (and I believe I'm speaking for many other skeptics) I believe science is the correct way because it makes sense. The scientific worldview allows me to understand why something happens (I know rain is condensed water from the clouds) and to predict what will happen (meteorologists can foretell the weather quite accurately). It allows me to create things that help my everyday life (such as cars or computers) and to learn about myself (through medicine and psychology). In essence, science is with me through every moment of my life, always providing proof of it's usefulness.

I imagine to you the bible is very similar. Reading it, you hear the voice of God, feel that you are being shown the truth behind the world. You feel you are loved and accepted, that you are finally understanding what it's all about. The bible reassures you of it's truth every day, and that's all the proof you need.

But you don't seem to realize the bible doesn't do this to everyone. When I read the bible, it is just a book. No God speaks to me, and no truth can be seen; just age-old words in a book that's been translated and edited a hundred times. It's not that I refuse it; it is impossible for me to believe the words are anything but an old fable.

And that is the point of this long-winded post. If God is the way you believe he is, if he truly is all-powerful.. then he doesn't care about atheists. He is deliberately choosing not to reveal himself to us. It cannot be his way of testing us, since he made us the way we are; unable to accept something we cannot see. The only possibility is God doesn't want us to believe in him, or at least is not willing to do a single thing to show himself to us. He only cares about his chosen ones, and they are the only ones allowed to perceive him.

So my question is, if even your God doesn't care what a bunch of scientifically-minded atheists think, why do you?
 
When you state, quite emphatically that the Bible can't possibly be right because science says it is wrong it is the same nonsense as religion saying science can't be right because the Bible says it is wrong. It is interpretation.

Except when you say the internet can't exist because it wasn't mentioned in the Bible, I can say, look, here's the internet.

This is true of all scientific claims. They can be demonstrated.

If you say, the Earth can't be billions of years old because the Bible says it's 6000, or whatever. You cannot point to any fact in the world to support that claim.

That's why no matter how hard you try to ignore it, there's a fundamental asymmetry between belief and science.

As for the interpretaion bit, you may notice that the only interpretation happening is Christian apologists trying to make the old fairy tales in the Bible line up with what is known about science. There is no such practice with science itself. That's because it yields results, the Bible doesn't.
 
David Henson is one of those people that see change as a bad thing, science changes, therefore it is a bad thing. It is not because it is learning, no change is bad.

But doesn't their so-called god change in that book?

Paul

:) :) :)
 
David, think of it this way when it comes to questions of science vs. the paranormal:

You witness a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. You are amazed and awestruck by the trick because you can't think of any way the magician could have accomplished that feat without the paranormal somehow being involved. You spend the next several years proselytizing about the paranormal based on your experience. One day another magician explains to you how the trick is done and after some patient tutelage you even learn how to do it yourself and yet you still can't shake your conviction that the original event you witnessed all those years ago was genuinely paranormal. You set out to see if it is in fact possible for you (or anyone else) to perform the feat without false bottomed hats or any of the other paraphernalia associated with the illusion but find to your bemusement and consternation that no one can replicate it. You are further taken aback by people who are convinced (despite your protestations to the contrary) that you yourself are performing a paranormal feat when you perform the magic trick for them.

A rational, courageous person eventually has to admit that while their science experiment (as any experiment that properly utilizes the scientific method ultimately is) hasn't proved that all instances ever of the rabbit out of a hat trick have a scientific explanation, the paranormal can no longer be the default explanation for said trick. No one is telling you you have to like it; after all most skeptics and believers alike would agree that the paranormal is a pretty seductive and appealing idea, but you should at least try to understand it.

I directed you to Martin Gardner not necessarily because I agree with his Credo Consolans (i.e., "I believe because it comforts me"), but because I think it is a reasonable rationalization for faith. My personal credo is "I go where the facts lead me, whether I find them comforting or not and knowing that I may have derived the wrong conclusions from my observation of the facts". Not nearly as pithy or uh, consoling as "Credo Consolans", I admit, but I manage.:)
 
James Randi has told people that his job is to trick them. He then would show them how a cold reading was done, after the show a few have told him that he wasn't fooling them, they know he is the real thing.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
You really think that never happens. Scientists are incorruptible,

Of course not. They are humans.

Newton didn't cheat a little bit on his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Paul? Maybe just a little? You think maybe as president of the Royal Society he didn't review Leibniz's work anonymously in a review in the Philosophical Transactions - just a little . . . Dr. Arnold S. Relman, an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine: “What kind of protection against fraud does peer review offer? Little or none. Fraudulent work was published in peer-reviewed journals, some with very exacting standards. In the case of the two papers we published, no suggestion of dishonesty was raised by any of the referees or editors.”

Sure, such things happen. People on these fora will be familiar with the name of Andrew Wakefield or Fleischmann and Pons.
But the important part is: these guys got caught.

They didn't get caught in the peer review process, that's true, because this process is here to detect and eliminate design flaws not willing dishonesty.

But they got caught later.
You see, when somebody produce an important finding, people will try to replicate it and they will use it in their own research. When their experiment fail, they will try to find why and discover that one of their starting hypothesis was flawed and will correct this mistake.


Science 83: “The history of science is replete with personal prejudices, misleading philosophical themes, miscast players. . . . I suspect all scientists have been guilty of prejudice at times in their research.”

Sure, why not, scientist are humans. But their job is to confront these prejudices to the facts, which should correct them.
Sure, this might not be enough, people can be quite entrenched in their prejudices, but within a decade, a new generation of scientists will rise that started their career knowing these new facts.
The scientific community, in other words, march on following the evidences even if, sometime, it leaves a handful of its member behind...


The danger in science making the assumption that it is incorruptible is exactly the same one religion is susceptible to and being blissfully ignorant to it or insisting it doesn't happen is equally as dangerous. It isn't about "science" or "religion" or "politics," it is about people.

The difference is that science does not assume its incorruptible. It actively seek out and try to correct its own mistakes. In science, individual greatness is reserved to people that overthrow the status quo and plow through new fields of investigation, not to the people that cling on the old knowledge...


Is or is not Pluto a planet? How many hundreds of years in between Isaac Newton and Einstein's relativity. When you state, quite emphatically that the Bible can't possibly be right because science says it is wrong it is the same nonsense as religion saying science can't be right because the Bible says it is wrong. It is interpretation. Nothing more. No amount of certainty, smugness or polemic pontification can change that.

Well, see, here is one example of science correcting itself.
You are quite right, science does not, should not take anything for granted (which is, by the way) the exact opposite of what you stated in your previous post.
You are also right, it is abusive to say that science will never support the idea of a deluge. The possibility still exist that facts will one day be uncover that challenge our understanding.
The possibility, however, is incredibly, vanishingly, nanoscopically small. It would require the wide span of our knowledge, literally hundred of thousands lifetime of scientific investigations in areas as diverse as (biology, geology,chemistry, radiology, archaeology, paleontology...) to not only be wrong, but be wrong in such a precise way that all these mistakes, independently, ends up painting the same picture.
 
James Randi has told people that his job is to trick them. He then would show them how a cold reading was done, after the show a few have told him that he wasn't fooling them, they know he is the real thing.

Paul

:) :) :)

That doesn't surprise me. I have always liked James Randi.
 
My personal credo is "I go where the facts lead me, whether I find them comforting or not and knowing that I may have derived the wrong conclusions from my observation of the facts". Not nearly as pithy or uh, consoling as "Credo Consolans", I admit, but I manage.:)

Why is it that you can't understand that my intense study of the Bible for the last 16 or so years is the same type of thing. If I found something in the Bible that couldn't be explained or that was as the skeptic seems to think, contradictory etc. I wouldn't have any problem in disbelieving it.
 
David Henson is one of those people that see change as a bad thing, science changes, therefore it is a bad thing. It is not because it is learning, no change is bad.

But doesn't their so-called god change in that book?

Paul

:) :) :)

I have no problem with change.
 
Why is it that you can't understand that my intense study of the Bible for the last 16 or so years is the same type of thing. If I found something in the Bible that couldn't be explained or that was as the skeptic seems to think, contradictory etc. I wouldn't have any problem in disbelieving it.


Then you should have no problem abandoning your belief in a global flood, no?
 
Why is it that you can't understand that my intense study of the Bible for the last 16 or so years is the same type of thing. If I found something in the Bible that couldn't be explained or that was as the skeptic seems to think, contradictory etc. I wouldn't have any problem in disbelieving it.
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And yet, when all those contradictions with fact are pointed out to you, you disregard them.
That's -FAITH-, not reason.
Using the bible to verify the bible is absurd.
Using the bible as a kick-off point into the world of refutations, that's applying reason.
 
So my question is, if even your God doesn't care what a bunch of scientifically-minded atheists think, why do you?

I'm here to learn about the way you think. I want you to teach me in the little time I have. All I seem to be getting is misunderstanding and assumptions about what I think of science - how could I possibly not see science as my god as well? and people who haven't given the Bible a fraction of the time that I have telling me how the Bible is just wrong. I need teachers not preachers.
 
Why is it that you can't understand that my intense study of the Bible for the last 16 or so years is the same type of thing. If I found something in the Bible that couldn't be explained or that was as the skeptic seems to think, contradictory etc. I wouldn't have any problem in disbelieving it.
That is nothing more than an Affirming the Consequent and Argument from Ignorance and Incredulity.

You have assumed that what you are reading in the Bible is right. Just because YOU or anyone can't explain or understand something in it does not magically means god/zeus/leprechauns/green goblins did it.
 
That is nothing more than an Affirming the Consequent and Argument from Ignorance and Incredulity.

You have assumed that what you are reading in the Bible is right. Just because YOU or anyone can't explain or understand something in it does not magically means god/zeus/leprechauns/green goblins did it.

I never said it did.
 

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