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Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

I'm explaining the maths. I can't use maths to do that.
The problem is that it appears that what you are discussing cannot possibly match, let alone explain, the relevant mathematics. Why don't you actually go through the mathematics that you are apparently explaining step-by-step?

You could perhaps begin by showing where in Minkowski's paper is the support for your position that you have claimed but provided no evidence.

Or you could start by actually going step-by-step through a photon (or two?) turning into an electron. You do understand the mathematics for this, right?
 
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The fine structure constant tells you the relative strength of the electromagnetic force as compared to the strong force. That's a fact.

Does your net worth tell you how wealthy you are relative to me? Does the volume and average density of the earth tell you the ratio of its mass to that of the sun?

You're denying the facts, and I'm afraid that points 1 and 2 apply to you, not me.

Very well, I'll stop wasting my time on you. This is something you could check in literally five minutes - as could any reader of this thread, by the way. You refuse to do so, or you did and you refuse to admit what you found. Either way, you're not worth conversing with.
 
I'm on holiday at the moment, so I can't post much. Just quickly:

The error is in their twisted strip picture. They imagine, for example, electric field lines normal to the strip - i.e. the photon - pointing radially inwards. They miss the fact that those field lines must carry on straight through the strip, pass through the centre of the object, and then go radially out the other side - leading to zero net field.
I really think you're reading too much into that. The twisted strip marked a)

toroid1.jpg


..is just a re-presentation of the typical depiction of a circularly polarised light wave:

polcir.gif

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/polclas.html

The figure-of-eight at b) is just a stepping stone to the torus with the dark line, see http://members.optushome.com.au/walshjj/toroid2.jpg.

I'm confused by this statement. I first read the paper during the FTL thread. Anyway, as I said before: the geometric curvature associated with the photon is too small for your purposes, therefore I assume that you have in mind a topological solution - as Williamson and van der Mark suggest - which is not curvature in the way I normally use the term. Informally, okay we can call it curvature.
OK. I'd say there's a topology to the electron, and a curvature to the photon, but let's not get bogged down with the distinction.

More later. For now, back to the screaming kids wonderful family day out.
Commiserations. The wife and I have a two-year-old, and he's a little unwell at the moment. Nothing serious, just a coughy cold. But said wife has been out this afternoon, shopping, and young sir has been having a bad day.
 
The problem is that it appears that what you are discussing cannot possibly match, let alone explain, the relevant mathematics...
What I'm discussing on this thread is the electromagnetic field, and it matches the scientific evidence. There's one field, not two. You seem unable to grasp this, and unable to grasp that the mathematics that assumes the existence of two fields cannot be employed to redress its own inherent flaw.

All you're doing is taking refuge in mathematicstion and stop being stop employing it as some kind of -step?

You could perhaps begin by showing where in Minkowski's paper is the support for your position that you have claimed but provided no evidence.
How many times do I have to show this? See Space and Time, two pages from the end:

"Then in the description of the field produced by the electron we see that the separation of the field into electric and magnetic force is a relative one with regard to the underlying time axis; the most perspicuous way of describing the two forces together is on a certain analogy with the wrench in mechanics, though the analogy is not complete".

Or you could start by actually going step-by-step through a photon (or two?) turning into an electron. You do understand the mathematics for this, right?
It's one photon turning into an electron and a positron. I understand the process, but expressing it mathematically is difficult. I can't give it, and nor could Dirac. Williamson has attempted to in http://www.cybsoc.org/electremdense2008v4.pdf see page 7.
 
Does your net worth tell you how wealthy you are relative to me? Does the volume and average density of the earth tell you the ratio of its mass to that of the sun?
No, but you're still wrong to assert that the fine structure constant, which gives the relative strength of the electromagnetic force as compared tot he strong force, is nothing to do with the strong force.

Very well, I'll stop wasting my time on you. This is something you could check in literally five minutes - as could any reader of this thread, by the way. You refuse to do so, or you did and you refuse to admit what you found. Either way, you're not worth conversing with.
You're caught out bang to rights, you can't handle the evidence and logic, so you're going to ignore it. Fine by me.
 
Just to emphasis what sol invictus just said:
The 4 coupling constants are defined for each force. This is stated in the your first link (Coupling Constants for the Fundamental Forces). There is one coupling constant for each force.
N.B. The coupling constant for the strong force is not really a constant (it varies with energy) but experimental data suggests that it is of the order of 1.

What has confused you is that these force-specific constants are then used in "attributing a relative strength" to the forces. This does not change their definition as constants related only to one force each.
I'm really not confused about this, RC. The fine structure constant takes the value that it does because of an intimate relationship between the electromagnetic force and the strong force. When you perform that low-energy proton-antiproton annihilation to end up with photons, the strong force is no longer apparent. But it's still there behind the scene.
 
I just have to ask. Has Farsight revolutionized physics yet?
Is Farsights work used in schools yet?

It was a couple of years ago I read that this should happened but I still get the impression that many people don't have realized that yet.

You're caught out bang to rights, you can't handle the evidence and logic, so you're going to ignore it. Fine by me.
I think I have heard this before...
 
In other words you cite an article but can not show that it is relevant to your claim, so this will probably end poorly with you not able to demonstrate your claim, then you will move on to something else. Pretty standard for someone who makes unsupported claims.
I'm not making unsupported claims. I give ample support. See the OP and others such as #13, #22, #34, #67, plus many more. There's support galore, but we're still seeing people like yourself dismissing scientific evidence because it doesn't fit with your conviction.
 
No the point is that you haven't shown the evidence of that it supports you beliefs. And believe me, Sol I is not foam flecked, however much your spiining may protect your ego from teh facts that you have not supported your claims.

Now comes the infamous 'Gish Gallop'.

1. Pretending that others don't understand, whne in fact they do.
2. Not presenting evidence.
3. Claiming the evidence is there.
4. Statements about 'it is really about something else', when your claim is shown to be unsupported by the evidence you do show.
5. Reporting posts.
6. Name calling.
7. Refusing to present the actual citations that 'support' the 'evidence'

Time to saddle up your pony and run away.
Nope. Time you started paying attention to scientific evidence.
 
What I'm discussing on this thread is the electromagnetic field, and it matches the scientific evidence. There's one field, not two. You seem unable to grasp this, and unable to grasp that the mathematics that assumes the existence of two fields cannot be employed to redress its own inherent flaw.
You seem unable to understand that the mathematics of two fields accurately describes the measurements that we get. So you have to use a single field explanation that reproduces these results. So far, you have not given any evidence that this is the case.

If you really want to provide evidence, show that your theory can produce the same predictions as standard theory. That's all I ask.
How many times do I have to show this? See Space and Time, two pages from the end:

"Then in the description of the field produced by the electron we see that the separation of the field into electric and magnetic force is a relative one with regard to the underlying time axis; the most perspicuous way of describing the two forces together is on a certain analogy with the wrench in mechanics, though the analogy is not complete".
You keep citing this, but you have given no evidence that what Minkowski means is anything like what you have said. All you need to do is go through the actual content of the Minkowski piece and show what parts of that content are relevant to the passage that you have quoted and how they are also relevant to your theory.

So far, the evidence is that you misunderstand the analogy that Minkowski is making in the passage. It is up to you to defend your interpretation. Unless, of course, you want to withdraw your claim because you are unable to defend your claim.
It's one photon turning into an electron and a positron. I understand the process, but expressing it mathematically is difficult. I can't give it, and nor could Dirac. Williamson has attempted to in http://www.cybsoc.org/electremdense2008v4.pdf see page 7.
You have to make clear what you actually endorse in that paper. In the past you have admitted that you do not endorse everything in the papers that you cite, so we need to see exactly what the reasoning it that you are employing in your own theory.

page 7 of that document does not have any equations governing the transformation of a photon into an electron. This means that either you do not understand any of the relevant mathematics in that paper or you were simply mistaken on the page number. If the latter option is the case, then you can prove to us that you do understand these things by actually taking us through the calculations. If you do not do this, your accumulated errors leave us no choice but to conclude that you have been deceiving us about your ability.
 
I'm not making unsupported claims.
But you have to admit that Dancing David had one thing exactly right: rather than defend your claims here, you ran off and started another thread on a different topic. And in general, you do have to admit that your standard mode of operation is to start a thread or two on a message board and then leave when it becomes clear that the questions are too difficult for you. You seem to never have gone through a calculation step-by-step, like people do in almost any attempt to educate in physics, to defend your positions. If you would only demonstrate that the actual mathematics works out, then you would silence your critics, yet you have never done this. Why is this?
 
So you're confirming that I was in fact exactly correct. He's an engineer who works on LEDs. His work has enough cross-over into the physics side of how LEDs work that some of his university work was counted as physics rather than engineering. At the time the "paper" you are so fond of was published, he was, as I said, a student, and he has not published anything since then, instead continuing his engineering work. Given that you agree with everything I have pointed out about this guy, I'm not sure why you're getting so upset about it.
No, you weren't at all correct, the guy is 50 and a research director, see http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/businessProfile.asp?s=LLSW B:STO. And do not as a moderator slag off experimental physicists and call them crackpot.
 
No, you weren't at all correct, the guy is 50 and a research director, see http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/businessProfile.asp?s=LLSW B:STO. And do not as a moderator slag off experimental physicists and call them crackpot.
Umm... you really are off the deep end here. You seem to be citing a guy who has a degree in applied physics, a follow up to an engineering degree, just as Cuddles indicated. He also has not published anything in physics except, as your search indicates, in a crackpot physics journal. You yourself have called established physicists crackpots, at least through your large quotations of other people's websites--the only difference is that here it is obvious that the only theoretical physics that the Hu in question has ever published is definitely crackpot.
 
So then we're left with something of a mystery. 511 keV photons can apparently do this dance, going round a loop of approximate size 10-12 m, but so can 5.11 keV photons going round a loop of size 10-10 m, and so on - you end up with a continuous spectrum of rest-masses.
No mystery. All photons are subject to E=hf. That h is action. It's "kick", with the dimensionality of momentum x distance. It's always the same distance. You can only make a stable double-loop configuration when the wavelength is 2pi times that distance.

See above. There's nothing to prevent me from considering a knot structure with double the linear dimensions of the electron's purported knot structure, as long as I also double the photon's wavelength (i.e. halve its energy). Without some fundamental length scale, both situations are equally possible (or impossible).
What prevents it, is the quantum of quantum mechanics.

No, I'm just pointing out that if you have waves confined by some mechanism, then there are usually going to be a series of normal modes, rather than just a fundamental mode (the 511 keV mode). Consider the harmonics on a guitar string, or a drum skin. Or indeed, the energy levels of the hydrogen atom, or excited hadron states. It's the same basic phenomenon (mathematically speaking).
When you also demand that those waves share a common amplitude, all this goes out of the window.
 
In the standard model, this interaction takes place via virtual fermions. Essentially, the e/m field and a charged quantum field are "coupled", and this coupling of the fields gives rise to interactions between the field quanta.
No problem. So long as people remember that they're virtual.

Now, since you're not too keen on electrons as fundamental particles I'm guessing that virtual electrons are right out (despite their enormous utility), so let's just examine the observable experimental data.
I wouldn't say virtual particles are right out, but instead are accounting units rather a description of the underlying reality. The underlying reality for virtual photons is actually the evanescent wave. This is essentially a photonic standing wave. See papers like this one by Stahlhofen and Nimtz.

Photon-photon scattering, while possible, is very very unlikely to happen. Hence the reason Maxwell's equations are linear. On the other hand, photon-electron scattering happens relatively easily, so there's a bit of a mismatch here if electrons are just photons in a self-trapped state. Furthermore, the nature of the scattering is very different in the two processes, even when it does occur, due to the fact that photons are bosons while electrons are fermions - this isn't directly to do with spin, but with the way fermion and boson states behave under exchange of two particles (spin is involved secretly though, via the spin-statistics theorem).
There's a lot of mismatch between an electron and a photon, but this doesn't mean an electron can't be a self-trapped photon. Note that action is exchanged rather than actual particles.

compton.gif

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/quantum/compton.html#c1

ETA: Oops. I just compared scattering of identical fermions with identical bosons, which isn't really what I meant to do. However, charged fermion-photon scattering is still different to photon-photon scattering.
Yes, it's different.
 
But you have to admit that Dancing David had one thing exactly right: rather than defend your claims here, you ran off and started another thread on a different topic.
Geddoutofit. Is there anything you won't say in an attempt to discredit? I started that fresh topic by popular demand, and here I am.

And in general, you do have to admit that your standard mode of operation is to start a thread or two on a message board and then leave when it becomes clear that the questions are too difficult for you.
Nope. I deal with the responses, then when I'm demonstrably right and have exposed cringeworthy ignorance and prejudice, people like ben_m and sol are so embarrassed that they resort to abuse and do a runner. They can't stand up to the evidence and the logic, and can't offer any counter-evidence or any counter-logic. Just like you.

You seem to never have gone through a calculation step-by-step, like people do in almost any attempt to educate in physics, to defend your positions. If you would only demonstrate that the actual mathematics works out, then you would silence your critics, yet you have never done this. Why is this?
Because I'm explaining the reality that underlies the mathematics. You can't do this with mathematics. Remember that it was your challenge to me to start this thread on the electromagnetic field. It's the experimental evidence and the logic that delivers understanding of what the mathematics means. What you consider to be "Maxwell's Equations" were recast by Heaviside into vector form, discarding the dualism that is vital for understanding the underlying geometry that then takes you places.

Now stop being a troll, and either enter into a sincere discussion, or butt out like those other folk whose physics knowledge is risibly scant.
 
Geddoutofit. Is there anything you won't say in an attempt to discredit? I started that fresh topic by popular demand, and here I am.
But the popular demand was that you explain, in detail, how a photon can turn into something with a charge. You have yet to explain this in any detail.
Nope. I deal with the responses, then when I'm demonstrably right and have exposed cringeworthy ignorance and prejudice, people like ben_m and sol are so embarrassed that they resort to abuse and do a runner. They can't stand up to the evidence and the logic, and can't offer any counter-evidence or any counter-logic. Just like you.
But you don't deal with responses by answering their questions. In my case, I have asked you to explain how you think Minkwoski supports your theory and you have dodged the question repeatedly. You provide the same passage over and over, but it is that passage that you have to explain.

As for providing counter-evidence, it is impossible to provide counter-evidence when you do not provide evidence. We are all waiting for you to provide evidence that a photon could produce a charge. You need to walk us through the physics involved.
Because I'm explaining the reality that underlies the mathematics. You can't do this with mathematics.
But we have no idea what mathematics you are talking about. So go step-by-step through the relevant mathematics so that we know what you are explaining.
Remember that it was your challenge to me to start this thread on the electromagnetic field. It's the experimental evidence and the logic that delivers understanding of what the mathematics means. What you consider to be "Maxwell's Equations" were recast by Heaviside into vector form, discarding the dualism that is vital for understanding the underlying geometry that then takes you places.
So go step-by-step through Heaviside's equations.
Now stop being a troll, and either enter into a sincere discussion, or butt out like those other folk whose physics knowledge is risibly scant.
Since I know that I have completed a PhD on the basis of my physics knowledge, your insults don't really mean all that much. All they do is draw attention to your attempts to avoid answering real questions.

I will repeat my questions since you apparently are trying to doge them again.

You seem unable to understand that the mathematics of two fields accurately describes the measurements that we get. So you have to use a single field explanation that reproduces these results. So far, you have not given any evidence that this is the case.

If you really want to provide evidence, show that your theory can produce the same predictions as standard theory. That's all I ask.

You keep citing the same passage from Minkowski, but you have given no evidence that what Minkowski means is anything like what you have said. All you need to do is go through the actual content of the Minkowski piece and show what parts of that content are relevant to the passage that you have quoted and how they are also relevant to your theory.

So far, the evidence is that you misunderstand the analogy that Minkowski is making in the passage. It is up to you to defend your interpretation. Unless, of course, you want to withdraw your claim because you are unable to defend your claim.

You have to make clear what you actually endorse in Williamson's paper. In the past you have admitted that you do not endorse everything in the papers that you cite, so we need to see exactly what the reasoning it that you are employing in your own theory.

Page 7 of that document does not have any equations governing the transformation of a photon into an electron. This means that either you do not understand any of the relevant mathematics in that paper or you were simply mistaken on the page number. If the latter option is the case, then you can prove to us that you do understand these things by actually taking us through the calculations. If you do not do this, your accumulated errors leave us no choice but to conclude that you have been deceiving us about your ability.
 
I'm not making unsupported claims. I give ample support. See the OP and others such as #13, #22, #34, #67, plus many more. There's support galore, but we're still seeing people like yourself dismissing scientific evidence because it doesn't fit with your conviction.

Um, I have no conviction, you have failed to explain what it is is or how it works. You have admitted you can't and won't do it.

When you show what it is and how it works you may change some minds.

You have yet to show how photons become electrons or why things have the values that they do.

ETA:
I checked your posts again, you have shown pictures, but no where that I saw did you explain how the photon get to be an electron. Please show me that, where does the mass and charge come from? (If you posted this please repost it.)

Exactly, with derivation of values.
 
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Because I'm explaining the reality that underlies the mathematics. You can't do this with mathematics.


So there is not a rabbit in the hat?

That is too bad, this is now philosophy and the 'you can't explain thoughts with thoughts', perhaps the weakest science argument. You could and can get away with this over in the R&P forum, however, in the forum, the SMT forum, you have to show yor work.

Here is the deal, you show how a photon gets the exact mass of an electron and how it gets a charge? Otherwise all you have is "Here is a picture that looks like a rabbit. here is a picture that looks like a hat. Therefore there is a rabbit in the hat?"



Show how your alleged theory produces a value for the mass of the electron and the charge of the electron. You do that and you will get a big prize. And probably a university and a couple of research centers named after you.

(See I have a number of models in my head as well, like "Gravity is like waves crashing on the shore." And other great ideas that have personal meaning to me. But if I can't get them to make the values, then it doesn't matter.)

Science is not about great ideas, it is about great ideas that have the ability to model the behavior of reality. You have a great idea, now show that it is an approximate model, how does the photon get the mass of an electron? How does it express a charge?
 

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