Hugo Chavez Loves Free Speech...

[Ziggurat]

We've been over this, haven't we Ziggurat?

Yes, we have. You still haven't come to terms with the breakdown of social order and the spiraling crime rate.

I had a relative who visited Venezuela last year as part of a medical team to perform surgeries to correct cleft lips and cleft palettes in poor children. They were put up at a hotel for military personnel, basically part of an R&R compound. They were told never to leave the compound unescorted. Even walking a few blocks to the local church was not permitted. The reason? They were told they would be kidnapped if they did. Not might be, would be. That is f***ed up. I mean, seriously f***ed up. This relative has been on such medical trips to a number of poor countries, including others in Latin America, and Venezuela was the only place where they weren't safe walking the streets alone. You can brag all you want to about your metrics, but Venezuelan society is crumbling.

 

[Childlike Empress]

This is really heartbreaking, Ziggurat, but even if it is true, it's very circumstantial evidence and tells nothing about social order in Venezuela. At the time i posted that chart, the kitten (and you, IIRC) predicted doom in Venezuela because of the temporary down-manipulation of the oil price.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is really heartbreaking, Ziggurat, but even if it is true, it's very circumstantial evidence and tells nothing about social order in Venezuela.

It's not circumstantial, it's anecdotal. Yes, it doesn't prove general conditions. That's why I made mention of crime statistics. That story just puts some context on what that spiraling crime rate means in more human terms.

At the time i posted that chart, the kitten (and you, IIRC) predicted doom in Venezuela because of the temporary down-manipulation of the oil price.

Doom? No, I didn't predict doom. IIRC, I predicted continuing stagnation/deterioration. And the recent food shortages suggest to me that I was right. Shortages are a classic result of economic controls. They will not be solved by more government controls. Do you think Chavez will start to limit government interference into the economy? Because if he doesn't, the problems are likely to get worse. That may not be "doom", but prospects don't look very good.

 

[Praktik]

aren't kidnappings big business in Colombia as well?

Perhaps there are regional factors at play here too that need to be considered.

 

[dudalb]

The Apologists just keep on a coming.....

 

[Ziggurat]

aren't kidnappings big business in Colombia as well?

This relative was not warned of any danger while in Colombia on such a trip.

 

[Meed]

The Democratically elected excuse is what gets to me about the Chavez supporters.. There is a long ,sad, history of people who are elected to office and then become tyrants..and are often quite popular. Just being elected does not mean you cannot be a oppresive, brutal,leader.

I'm not a Chavez supporter, nor am I anti-Chavez. I like some things about him and dislike other things. But the fact is calling him a 'dictator' is simply ridiculous. If everyone was in here calling him a messiah I'd disagree just as strongly.

What brutality are you talking about, btw?

 

[Meed]

Yes, we have. You still haven't come to terms with the breakdown of social order and the spiraling crime rate.

I had a relative who visited Venezuela last year as part of a medical team to perform surgeries to correct cleft lips and cleft palettes in poor children. They were put up at a hotel for military personnel, basically part of an R&R compound. They were told never to leave the compound unescorted. Even walking a few blocks to the local church was not permitted. The reason? They were told they would be kidnapped if they did. Not might be, would be. That is f***ed up. I mean, seriously f***ed up. This relative has been on such medical trips to a number of poor countries, including others in Latin America, and Venezuela was the only place where they weren't safe walking the streets alone. You can brag all you want to about your metrics, but Venezuelan society is crumbling.

It is really f**cked up, but it's not unique to Venezuela in the region. My dad went to Colombia to give a talk and the hotel and restaurants he went to were protected by guards with assault rifles, metal detectors, etc. Anyway, is there any specific reason this is Chavez's fault?

 

[Ziggurat]

Anyway, is there any specific reason this is Chavez's fault?

I think so, yes. I think that the rise in crime and the deterioration in the rule of law since Chavez took power is not a coincidence, but is a direct result of his domestic policies (cronyism, the empowerment of Chavista gangs, etc).

 

[DC]

I think so, yes. I think that the rise in crime and the deterioration in the rule of law since Chavez took power is not a coincidence, but is a direct result of his domestic policies (cronyism, the empowerment of Chavista gangs, etc).

evidence?

 

[DC]

the Chavez topics are so funny.

there are so many points one can critize about Chavez and his politics.
But the majority of anti chavez posters here mix in a huge numbers of lies and misinformation, it makes em look laughable.

they also dont want to think about how Venezuela was before Chavez and the new Constitution. Private media worldwide are demonizing him and theyr usefull idiots take all theyr words as total trueth.

wile European and US and south american election observer did not see any manipulation or cheating during elections a huge number of Conspiracy teorists claim the Elections are stolen. the funny thing is, they dont want to hear about US elections beeing stolen, and those were alot lot more controversial than Chavez elections.

they point out a few points the Chavez government was not able to fix yet. Every problem is seen as a total failure.

But strangely enough the Venezuelan people, the majority of them is poor, are pretty happy with Chavez and his government. they see alot of progress.
Those people have Elect him, they voted for the new constitution (a more democratic one, more direct democracy), they elected Chavez again, they confirmed him in his office in a recall referendum, a democratic tool most countrys miss. Venezuelans can kick out their president when they dont want him anymore in the middle of his term.

Would the antichavista conspiracy theorists here on JREF concentrate more on true critique against Chavez, it would be alot less easy to defend him and his Government.
and would they actually bring up some evidence for their claims, they would seem less laughable.

 

[Meed]

the Chavez topics are so funny.

there are so many points one can critize about Chavez and his politics.
But the majority of anti chavez posters here mix in a huge numbers of lies and misinformation, it makes em look laughable.

Don't forget all the correct but meaningless criticisms like "He bought weapons form Russia!!!!!!"

 

[DC]

Don't forget all the correct but meaningless criticisms like "He bought weapons form Russia!!!!!!"

exactly

but i do think it is actually a legit critque point. Not that they buy Russian tech, but that they spend alot money on weappons. to much for my taste.
Hungry people dont need jetfighters. But thats the decision of the Venezuelans.

 

[Meed]

Maybe, but that would look something more like "He spent x % of his budget on weapons! He should be spending more on domestic programs!" rather than "OMG he's up to something dastardly with those weapons!"

Virtually every country buys weapons and Venezuela's military budget is not very high either for the region or worldwide.

 

[DC]

Maybe, but that would look something more like "He spent x % of his budget on weapons! He should be spending more on domestic programs!" rather than "OMG he's up to something dastardly with those weapons!"

Virtually every country buys weapons and Venezuela's military budget is not very high either for the region or worldwide.

yes indeed. Venezuelas Military spending ranks very very low. But still i belive they dont need jetfighters. the AK47 factory in Venezuela is alot better idea, this atleast creates jobs.

 

[funk de fino]

Isn't that pretty much the same thing?

No, it's worse. It has more data and classes people as opposition or pro govt.

Didn't I just say I don't defend it?

So you agree that there is no real democracy in Venezuela as long as this database is used?

Fair point. But do you think the government should have considered it's security to be at stake?

Everytime there is a protest a govt would feel it is threatened? Should the tea partiers have been locked up or shot?

I have on occasion.Awful.Awful. Why do you ask?

They are the equivalent of the Globo or RCTV. The Chavistas dont like it so try and get them taken off air or prosecuted on trumped up charges. Do you see this happening to Fox news? You said there were the same laws in the US. Where are they? Where is Fox news supportive of Obama? are they made to run Obama popoganda to get a license? Is Glenn Beck in jail?

 

[funk de fino]

Would the antichavista conspiracy theorists here on JREF concentrate more on true critique against Chavez, it would be alot less easy to defend him and his Government.
and would they actually bring up some evidence for their claims, they would seem less laughable.

I do and you tend to run away.

 

[funk de fino]

I'm not a Chavez supporter, nor am I anti-Chavez. I like some things about him and dislike other things. But the fact is calling him a 'dictator' is simply ridiculous. If everyone was in here calling him a messiah I'd disagree just as strongly.

What brutality are you talking about, btw?

Most people say he is a tin pot dictator on the way to becoming a serious threat. This is based on his performance in the last 5 years. No one is serioulsy saying he is Stalin yet.

Do we allow him to become like Stalin or do we warn people now?

 

[DC]

I do and you tend to run away.

you bringin up evidence? for the stolen elections?

 

[DC]

Most people say he is a tin pot dictator on the way to becoming a serious threat. This is based on his performance in the last 5 years. No one is serioulsy saying he is Stalin yet.

Do we allow him to become like Stalin or do we warn people now?

evidence?