• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Split From Kamikaze Attacks and the Effect of Speed

Redtail,

I will assume that you are both asking a question and engaging in rhetoric, simultaneously. To the extent you are engaging in rhetoric, I don't think your point is very well made.

Adrenaline would not permit a human being, not even Husain Bolt, to move fast enough to get across a room and underneath a desk if a jetliner traveling at 250 yards per second was 100 yards away. Nor would it make a difference if a person could as the schrapnel, debris, fire, and other energy effects would undoubtedly destroy that person.

Assuming you are asking a question, you may further assume that I either know what adrenaline is; or, if I don't, I can probably look it up and get some sort of general overview of what it is, what it does and so on.

Why do you ask, pray tell?
 
Thanks for your reply.

When you say "the explosive force of the 500lb bomb (which is incidentally less than the fuel load of a B767)" what do you mean by "the fuel load"? Does that refer to the weight of the liquid or the energy volatility of kerosene?

By the way, do your calculations take into consideration the differing energy/volatility characteristics as between aviation gasoline and aviation jet fuel, which is kerosene? If so, how was that done; if not, why not?


Why don't you do the calculations for yourself and compare results?
 
Rhetoric and assumptions. You've also disregarded my earlier posts on this that demonstrate there was no sound of jet engines according to 3 witnesses I quoted .

Was this not you saying this? If not your in violation of your MA.

If you want to read it as standing for one thing, despite his saying I never saw it while I was standing there, then good luck to you.

He (and you) were talking about HEARING the plane. Why are you changing mid flight to seeing it?

Let me ask you this. As you sit here, do you know where he was standing, or would you like for me to answer that question for you?

What does it have to do with his statement that he HEARD the plane?

Are you now claiming you know better then he does what he witnessed (HEARD)?
 
Last edited:
Yup. So what? The guy had no clue which direction the jet was coming from because he was behind a wall of buildings that blocked vision and confused sound direction clues.

No-planers are mentally deranged. "thingy" is a lame attempt on your part to dodge being called a no-planer. The dodge doesn't work. What do you think hit the towers and made them sway?



The record volume was clearly turned down on the camera. Other videos show shouts and screams when the plane hits.

Here are videos of Flight 11 and Flight 175 that show what people heard. If you were inside a building or on a firetruck with the siren running, the sound wasn't easy to tell from all the other traffic noises in rush hour NYC.

For instance;




Greetings big al,

Nice to be in dialogue here. OK, I think you may be onto something here.

I would like to know if you'd like to address these videos one at a time and assess the content of them, consisting in the sights, the sounds and the comments.

If you are willing to do that, one at a time, then let me start with the first one, the one found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmAWaKoYQ

OK, here's what I see and hear, speaking just for me, of course; and it is unlikely posters will agree with me, but that is fine. We all have the right to say what we see and what we hear and what we deduce from use of those sense impressions:

0:00 to 0:12 A TV talking head identifies the time as 3 hrs and a few minutes after 8:45am, meaning at or about noon on 9/11. He uses the phrase "first crash took place." [He does not ever use the word jetliner or even plane]

0:12 to 0:18(+/-) A camera is aimed at the sidewalk and shoes are seen along with people walking. Voices can be heard, but not much else

0:18 to 0:22 An onrushing sound, consistent with relatively low speed and not at all consistent with a high velocity sound, can be heard that, to me, speaking just for me, sounds like a subway train traveling at 30mph+/-; but does not sound like jet engines at or near full throttle to me at all.

I repeat nothing at all like a jetliner at any speed, let alone full throttle, 1000ft above street level. Furthermore, the sound should have been heard for a lot longer than it was and should have increased in intensity, rather than have a consistent level for the full timing interval. But, the video contains only voice chatter from about 0:13 to 0:18, at which time the onrushing sound appears, not in gradual increments, but all at once and sounds, to me, as I said, like a subway.

To me, jet engines are an everyday occurrence, my hearing is slightly above average, and I here assert the sound in the video does not sound like that of jet engines to me.

I accept that everyone else here will say that the sound they hear sounds exactly like they'd expect two jet engines to sound.

So, there might be some here who will acknowledge we have a disagreement, but mostly, people will declare themselves right and me wrong. I get it.

I do no such thing. I describe what I hear and I acknowledge you have the right to describe what you hear and I respect that we disagree. You hear the sound of an oncoming Boeing 767-200. I hear the sound of a subway. OK?

0:22 to 0:23 There is a visible shaking of the camera, while the onrushing sound is still heard. Then, at about the 0:23 mark a collision that sounds like a car crash is heard. The collision is at some distance, but is pretty intense.

0:23-0:25 The sound that I say is a subway can still be heard after the collision, at almost, but not quite the same intensity as before the collision sound. I therefore deduce that I am likely correct that what is heard is a subway train because had it been a jetliner, the 'rushing' sound would have ceased from and after the point of collision. The collision was at the 0:23 marker and the 'rushing' sound continues past that point. The 'rushing' sound then diminishes, which I think is consistent with the subway train either coming to a stop or fading in intensity as it travels away from the camera, consistent with a doppler effect.

0:26 A voice is heard to say "what the hell was that." I consider that significant because based on the location of the camera, if a jetliner had passed overhead at about 1000 ft above street level, I think people at that vantage point would have known it was a jetliner and would not have asked "what the hell was that."

0:28 Now, to be sure in response to the query "what the hell was that?" someone says "sounded like a plane crash." I grant you that. That is a valid witness statement as to what that person heard. I, on the other hand, disagree for the reasons I have stated above. Did you see them?

0:28-0:37 A this point the camera begins a process of moving from the foot shots and somewhere at about the 32sec mark we see, for the first time, the sky in the direction of the WTC.

0:37-0:51 We also see in this interval smoke ranging in color from medium gray to light gray, and predominantly light gray. To me the observed smoke color is completely inconsistent with a jetliner crash because kerosene burns in very thick, black billowy smoke.

To me, speaking just for me, the color is inconsistent with jet fuel. I know posters here will have physics and math and all sorts of other explanations that says that the color of the smoke is just exactly what it should be for a jetliner crash. I get it.

However, I, on the other hand, simply disagree. The smoke is not black, not thick and billowy and is, instead, more whispy, and more light gray than any other color; and not, therefore, consistent with a jet fuel based fire at all.

0:40to 0:51 As the predominantly light gray smoke is being seen, the narration continues with questioning as to what is seen "come to us" is repeated and so on.

0;51 to 1:01 The location of the smoke is identified as the WTC and someone says "it's just [pronounced:jist] an explosion."

That narration is consistent with my claim that what happened was "it's just an explosion."

So, this is a point in my favor, as I see it. I acknowledged that at 0:28 or so, someone said something consistent with your claim that it was "a plane." i wonder whether you are willing to acknowledge that someone said something in the video that is consistent with my claim of explosion but not a jetliner crash?

1:03to1:16 We return to the anchor who says various things, BUT, who never says it was a plane crash, let alone a jetliner crash. He does give a name, that of Dick Oliver, who is a witness. I wonder if anyone has contacted him recently?

big al, that is how I see your first video. As you can tell, it takes a little time to go through these videos to assess them. That is why I recommend doing this one at a time. If you flood us with 5 videos, it is akin to overload.

So, is it ok with you if we take these one at a time?

Let me know your thoughts on my interpretation of what I think the video shows and what it sounds like and what the people in it say.

For those of you who want to call me a liar and such like. I understand. However, I would suggest you not do that; and, instead, just be honest with yourselves and provide your own reasoning and your own interpretation as honestly as YOU can.

Suffice to say, big al, I think this video supports no plane theory to a faretheewell. You have my sincere thanks for posting it up.:)
 
Last edited:
Still doesn't get something as basic as the speed of sound. Ignore the no planer scumbags please.
 
The only way I ever see anyone getting anywhere "debating" a no-planer (or most other truthers) is if they have a gurney with heavy leather restraints, a couple yards of cheesecloth and a garden hose.

Cool. Sounds like a normal Saturday night at the twinstead house
 
jackanory,

Thank you for posting and for using a page from my posting book, that of use of large letters. :)

The issue is that what people say almost always reveals something about them.

Do you know when Mr. Praimnath's account first appeared? I think it was at some point in 2002, many months after the event.

Do you accept that the shadow thingy was reliably clocked at traversing through the air at more than 500mph? If so, do you accept that speed translates to about 250 yards per second? And, given that rate of speed, jackanory, do you credit or discredit Mr. Praimnath's account where he states, as and how you quote, as follows:

"All I can see is this big gray plane, with red letters on the wing and on the tail, bearing down on me," said Stanley. The plane appeared to be like 100 yards away, the plane tore into the side of the building and exploded.

And, given that same attributed speed and all the joules and all the TNT that other posters have referenced, do credit or discredit the following:

However, he could see a flaming wing of the plane in the doorway of his department.

While not quoted by either you or by me here, so far, another of Mr. Praimnath's versions of his story has him both seeing the jetliner right on top of him, so to speak, and also allowing him to have enough time to go from one end of his office to another and hide under his desk which then served to do what the perimeter steel columns of the WTC could not do, that is, stop the jetliner in its tracks, all while not harming him in the least.

Let me be clear.

I here assert that Mr. Stanley Praimnath's survival and his account of it confrim as well as any single witness that what happened on 9/11 involved a shadow thingy and not a Boeing 767.

thanks

I get it. You use a witness to attempt to strengthen your arguement. Then when its pointed out to you that your witness debunks your arguement - you throw your witness under a bus. Cool. No planer.
 
Out of all the threads at JREF, the 9/11 threads are the ones I lurk in and I kind of make a point of keeping out of them, as I really don't have much to add to the dialogue. But in one or two other threads, people have said that it's important to reply to hypotheses like these (there's no way I can call them theories) for people who may randomly come across them. As I am essentially one of those people, I'd like to offer a thank you for your time, aggravation and diligence in this effort.

So, yeah, thank you!
 
Out of all the threads at JREF, the 9/11 threads are the ones I lurk in and I kind of make a point of keeping out of them, as I really don't have much to add to the dialogue.

Hey, that never stops me ;)
 
Thank you for posting and for using a page from my posting book, that of use of large letters. :)
The issue is that what people say almost always reveals something about them.
Do you know when Mr. Praimnath's account first appeared? I think it was at some point in 2002, many months after the event.
Do you accept that the shadow thingy was reliably clocked at traversing through the air at more than 500mph? If so, do you accept that speed translates to about 250 yards per second? And, given that rate of speed, jackanory, do you credit or discredit Mr. Praimnath's account where he states, as and how you quote, as follows:
"All I can see is this big gray plane, with red letters on the wing and on the tail, bearing down on me," said Stanley. The plane appeared to be like 100 yards away, the plane tore into the side of the building and exploded.
And, given that same attributed speed and all the joules and all the TNT that other posters have referenced, do credit or discredit the following:z
However, he could see a flaming wing of the plane in the doorway of his department.
While not quoted by either you or by me here, so far, another of Mr. Praimnath's versions of his story has him both seeing the jetliner right on top of him, so to speak, and also allowing him to have enough time to go from one end of his office to another and hide under his desk which then served to do what the perimeter steel columns of the WTC could not do, that is, stop the jetliner in its tracks, all while not harming him in the least.
Let me be clear.
I here assert that Mr. Stanley Praimnath's survival and his account of it confrim as well as any single witness that what happened on 9/11 involved a shadow thingy and not a Boeing 767.
thanks
...
 
Greetings big al,

Nice to be in dialogue here. OK, I think you may be onto something here.

I would like to know if you'd like to address these videos one at a time and assess the content of them, consisting in the sights, the sounds and the comments.

If you are willing to do that, one at a time, then let me start with the first one, the one found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmAWaKoYQ

That video shows a 767 and a sound unheard on Manhattan, that of a big jet flying flat-out below FAA minimums.

You are a no-planer. Get mental help.
 
By the way, do your calculations take into consideration the differing energy/volatility characteristics as between aviation gasoline and aviation jet fuel, which is kerosene? If so, how was that done; if not, why not?

E=1/2mv2
You can't fine errors in physics and you have no clue.

The energy of impact is a velocity and mass issue.

The energy in jet fuel and aviation gasoline is almost the same, with jet fuel winning.


You are saying someone who saw a 767 hit the WTC is proof of a 767 not hitting the WTC because he survived??? lol, you have to make up the dumbest delusions for what reason?

The impact of the 767 is like a bullet, the bullet kills what it hits, if you are not hit by parts you can survive unless you are burnt by the 66,000 pounds of fuel. The impact of the fuel would also kill.

Your posts debunk themselves; your delusional ideas on 911 are funny. Jet engine parts are wheel-covers and fuselage parts are horse-trailers. What new delusions do you have today?
 
big al,


Your reply disapoints as you do not address the video that I have reviewed, at your suggestion, no less, and commented upon, in detail.

Your actions in that respect are reprehensible. One wonders, why on earth did you post up video links if you do not wish to look at and discuss tbe content of them?

If you do not allow yourself to look at video with precision and with an honest assessment of what is actually in them, you may as well not even post up links to them.

:Let me be clear:

You appear to be afraid to look at the video you, yourself, posted because the first one on your list just might reveal the extent to which the common storyline is fraudulent.
 
0:18 to 0:22 An onrushing sound, consistent with relatively low speed and not at all consistent with a high velocity sound, can be heard that, to me, speaking just for me, sounds like a subway train traveling at 30mph+/-; but does not sound like jet engines at or near full throttle to me at all.

I repeat nothing at all like a jetliner at any speed, let alone full throttle, 1000ft above street level. Furthermore, the sound should have been heard for a lot longer than it was and should have increased in intensity, rather than have a consistent level for the full timing interval. But, the video contains only voice chatter from about 0:13 to 0:18, at which time the onrushing sound appears, not in gradual increments, but all at once and sounds, to me, as I said, like a subway.

Ummm...the video is shot on the sidewalk...last time I checked, New York subways are called subways because they are subterranean....and are 30 feet or better underground. How could it be the sound of a subway?
 
big al,


Your reply disapoints as you do not address the video that I have reviewed, at your suggestion, no less, and commented upon, in detail.

Your actions in that respect are reprehensible. One wonders, why on earth did you post up video links if you do not wish to look at and discuss tbe content of them?

If you do not allow yourself to look at video with precision and with an honest assessment of what is actually in them, you may as well not even post up links to them.

:Let me be clear:

You appear to be afraid to look at the video you, yourself, posted because the first one on your list just might reveal the extent to which the common storyline is fraudulent.

I did address the video, I gave it to you in the first place. There are more like it.

It clearly shows the sound of a 767 flying flat-out out at FAA minimums and the image of the plane hitting a tower.

You are a no-planer. Seek mental help. Take and pass a High School-level course in physics when you can.
 
Last edited:
Wow. No planeritus. This is worse than the rockin' pneumonia AND the boogy woogie flu!
 
Ummm...the video is shot on the sidewalk...last time I checked, New York subways are called subways because they are subterranean....and are 30 feet or better underground. How could it be the sound of a subway?

And the subway certainly doesn't go at near-supersonic speed.
 
I did address the video, I gave it to you in the first place. There are more like it.

It clearly shows the sound of a 767 flying flat-out out at FAA minimums and the image of the plane hitting a tower.

You are a no-planer. Seek mental help. Take and pass a High School-level course in physics when you can.

The physics is too much for him! And to expect someone who says jet engine parts are wheel-covers, he will never be able to comprehend the jet engine sound. He has failed to comprehend 911 and only understands his delusions.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom