When does an embryo / fetus become human, and why?

[Andrew Wiggin]

How many tape worms are geneticaly related to you by 50%?

Have you looked around lately? The standards for human are pretty low lately. A tapeworm keeps his head where the sun don't shine, feeds off the line of bull excrement he's fed, and regurgitates more of the same. Sounds like a lot of folks I know...

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[Andrew Wiggin]

Would it be more moral if we anestitized the fetus before termination?

Not a bad idea actually. We'd do the same for the family dog, or rather have the vet do it. We'd do the same for a convict about to be executed by lethal injection. Certainly a baby should be anesthetized before abortion. I'd bet a suitable dose of some narcotic that crossed the placenta would do the trick, and if I recall, lots of them do. Basically just make abortion a procedure done with conscious sedation. The dose that will sedate the mother will sedate and anesthatize the fetus too.

The question then becomes: Would the folks who use the 'baby can feel pain' argument against abortion put their signs down and stop picketing, or would they find some other reason to protest? Since I don't think there's a lot of honest debate from that quarter, I'd expect that satisfying one objection will just lead to the next one being brought up.

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[Andrew Wiggin]

I don't know. Maybe we should let one live long enough and find out!

Might be a fun experiment. Hard to find volunteers though, given the inevitable messy and painful end. (a werewolf-like version of the chestburster from 'Alien', would be my best guess. Teratomas are scary, nasty little bits of scary nastiness, all hair and teeth and ooze)


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Random thought: babies aren't pretty. They're little slimy things that make lots of noise and soil themselves repeatedly, but we're programmed to bond with them and protect them. Just an evolutionary survival trait. If we weren't programmed to find them cute and cuddly, would this be a debate? Lots of 'save the kitties' and 'save the doggies' emotions in our species, but no 'save the poisonous smelly slime slug'...

 

[westprog]

I have always felt viability was the most rational point to draw any line. Purely opinion of course. When the fetus can survive outside the body it can be classified as a person. Before that it is living in someone and off someone. A parasitic organism. It is a very complex teratoma. And if it is living in you and off you then it's you. And, as a part of you, it is up to you what happens to it.

This isn't really a moral argument. A baby is entirely dependent on its human carers, and to some extent will continue to be for a long time - possibly for the rest of its life. Failure to devote enormous effort and resources to keeping a baby alive is considered criminal behaviour.

 

[Ausmerican]

This isn't really a moral argument. A baby is entirely dependent on its human carers, and to some extent will continue to be for a long time - possibly for the rest of its life. Failure to devote enormous effort and resources to keeping a baby alive is considered criminal behaviour.

Well if you cant see the difference between being fed by someone and feeding off someone then thats fine, as I said it is an opinion. And FYI it IS a moral argument. Mine. Based on my morals. YMoralsMV. Doesn't make your morals superior to mine, just different.

 

[TimCallahan]

I was actually hoping to get some of our Christian posters to discuss the issue of "ensoulment" as a definition of being human. If any are listening / lurking, maybe they could state when in the course of pregnancy they think that "ensoulment" takes place.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I was actually hoping to get some of our Christian posters to discuss the issue of "ensoulment" as a definition of being human. If any are listening / lurking, maybe they could state when in the course of pregnancy they think that "ensoulment" takes place.

'ensoulment' sounds too much like 'enslavement' to my ear. Since there's no way to detect the soul, even if it does exist, it makes a useless criteria for distinguishing an abortable tissue lump from and unabortable one.

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[theshotgunhero]

I always thought that what makes me human and alive, fundementally, is that I can breath. So I would say that to be human is to made of the stuff of humans, (so, a new human is created at conception), however an independant, alive human BEING can only be through being able to breath, regardless of a soul or not. It's not the soul that breaths, it's not that soul that dies either.
If some religious zealot starts talking about 'souls' remind them that they can't be murdered by there own definition of what a soul is.

 

[Clownshoes]

I'd argue that the fact that life is already forming makes the logic distinct from contraception. It's my belief that given the extremes "it starts human" and "not until birth", all choices in between are arbitrary. I feel it needs to be one or the other, and I favor the former.

Not a lot of athiest pro-lifers out there...I wonder why that is? Is pro-life just such a popular talking point for the religious right that it drowns out secular opinions on the matter?

I'm an atheist pro-lifer. And is one of the reasons I'm a pro-lifer. I don't think that there is any sort of after-life or "heaven" so that's why we have to treat life with that much more respect because its all we got. You are right about the religious right drowning out any rational discussion on the subject because I'm a pro-lifer for a very different reason then they are.

I think that once an egg is fertilized then it deserves a chance to live. I feel like if you are irresponsible enough with your body to get pregnant in this day and age then you have no right to kill the human potential inside of you. You bear the consequences of your actions. To me it seems not only morally wrong but selfish as well to abort it.

 

[Fnord]

When does an embryo / fetus become human, and why?

At the age of majority, which is 18 years of age in the U.S.A. At that age, the foetus becomes fully and legally viable, having gained the right to vote, sign a contract, enlist in the military and fill out his or her own income tax forms.

 

[Belz...]

I'm an atheist pro-lifer. And is one of the reasons I'm a pro-lifer. I don't think that there is any sort of after-life or "heaven" so that's why we have to treat life with that much more respect because its all we got. [...]

I think that once an egg is fertilized then it deserves a chance to live.

Any life, under any circumstances ?

I think Variola's extermination was a good thing. Who cares about that thing's right to live ? What about bugs in your home ? Do you extend them this courtesy ?

Humans are pretty much the only exception we make... but what about individual human cells ? Sperm cells ? Zygotes ? Embryos ?

It's nigh-impossible to draw the line reasonably and satisfy everyone, but to claim that you can is naive. So this is why this thread is here: to ascertain posters' opinions as to where this line should be drawn, and why.

 

[rorylee]

When he/she's heart starts to beat he/she has a soul, when he/she takes their first breathe he/she is human, i tend to believe.

May i ask what line or phrase in the bible says not to have any form of abortion?

 

[Mr Clingford]

When he/she's heart starts to beat he/she has a soul, when he/she takes their first breathe he/she is human, i tend to believe.

May i ask what line or phrase in the bible says not to have any form of abortion?

The argument:
Life begins at conception.
You shouldn't kill.
Abortion is killing and therefore wrong.

Both premises can be challenged by atheists and theist alike.

 

[Mister Agenda]

At the age of majority, which is 18 years of age in the U.S.A. At that age, the foetus becomes fully and legally viable, having gained the right to vote, sign a contract, enlist in the military and fill out his or her own income tax forms.

But not old enough to drink alcohol. I think we should either raise the age of the other stuff to 21, or lower the drinking age to 18. If a person isn't old enough to be trusted with alcohol, how can they be trusted with voting rights and military duty?

I've heard our brains aren't fully developed until about 25.

 

[Mister Agenda]

When he/she's heart starts to beat he/she has a soul, when he/she takes their first breathe he/she is human, i tend to believe.

May i ask what line or phrase in the bible says not to have any form of abortion?

You are correct about the Bible not having much to say about abortion. The one time it is specifically addressed it was definitely not treated as murder.

 

[Fnord]

But not old enough to drink alcohol. I think we should either raise the age of the other stuff to 21, or lower the drinking age to 18. If a person isn't old enough to be trusted with alcohol, how can they be trusted with voting rights and military duty?

I've heard our brains aren't fully developed until about 25.

Good points.

The NRA takes members under the age of 15, so maybe it's important to learn how to handle a firearm before being able to drink? I dunno...

 

[Belz...]

When he/she's heart starts to beat he/she has a soul, when he/she takes their first breathe he/she is human, i tend to believe.

So before the heart beats there's no soul ?

May i ask what line or phrase in the bible says not to have any form of abortion?

Should I care about what the bibble says ?

 

[Fnord]

So before the heart beats there's no soul?

No. Hearts can beat without being attached to a body. They can even be placed in a different body after the original has died. Heart =/= Soul

Should I care about what the bibble says?

Sure ... imagine how many "bar bets" you could settle just by knowing where to look up the appropriate verse!

 

[TimCallahan]

The strongest, religiously-based pro-life position seems to be that ensoulment, hence human status, takes place at conception. Looking at various sources, I've found wide disagreement as to how many zygotes actually survive. A high-end level is that 50% of fertilized ova don't make it. Most are spontaneously aborted in the first month. The low-end estimate on embryonic survival is that 85% don't make it. Thus, in natural conditions, without anyone attempting to terminate the pregnancy as man as 50% or as few as 15% of the fertilized ova are eventually born.

My question to those believers who assert that ensoulment, thus humanity, occurs at conception is this: Is God okay with a system in which at least half the human beings with souls are never born?

 

[Clownshoes]

Any life, under any circumstances ?

I think Variola's extermination was a good thing. Who cares about that thing's right to live ? What about bugs in your home ? Do you extend them this courtesy ?

Humans are pretty much the only exception we make... but what about individual human cells ? Sperm cells ? Zygotes ? Embryos ?

It's nigh-impossible to draw the line reasonably and satisfy everyone, but to claim that you can is naive. So this is why this thread is here: to ascertain posters' opinions as to where this line should be drawn, and why.

I don't value a bugs life more than a humans. Mainly because a bug is not capable of intelligent thought. I'm talking specifically about human life in this context.