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The warmers are becoming skeptics

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What do you want me to say? I don't have any ideas.

I think it is unfair of you to put the blame only on the warmers. Can we agree there is stupidity on both sides in the interests of moving forward?

For the record, I have always said there is stupidity on both sides.
What I did say is that the warm mongers would rather engage in abuse than discussion with anyone does not follow the party line (I know I am being general, but it is a fair generalisation imho).

At any rate, why should we move on? Has the point any merit at all? The points being:
- get the actual science out there, not lies and exaggerations
- educate Joe
- stop the political ideology getting involved in the discussion and hijacking the science

Are these the things you don't want discussed?

Obviously the ideologically driven warmers wish not to discuss these? Why? I could have a guess, but I am afraid my answer would be very cynical. :);)
 
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If you'll notice, I have spent a lot of time in the other threads trying to get the science out there.

The truth is, Joe doesn't want to be educated.

I am also trying to separate the science from the political ideology.

But it does not help for you to keep focusing the attention on the ideologues on our side. Be honest, there are just as many ideologues on your side.
 
Why do you keep backpedalling?
You wanted to know what I thought, you wanted to engage in the costs and you wanted to discuss the truth, the politics and the science and you raised these points and others.
Everytime we get close to an actual conversation you run away. :boggled:

By the way, what I noticed from you is roughly 50 posts of personal attacks and another 40 asking questions and running away.

If you really want to get to the science I suggest you do it yourself. There are far too many liars out there to glean any truth.

Frankly, when it comes to the truth in this, the only way that anyone could concievably be 100% happy is by virtually wiping ths slate clean and starting over.
 
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If you really want to get to the science I suggest you do it yourself. There are far too many liars out there to glean any truth.

Frankly, I believe this is the crux of your problem. You don't trust the well preformed research and give it equal weight with poorly done research and research where the conclusions don't match the data.

Paranoid conspiracy theorist often believe that most everyone is lying. It makes it hard to find any truth.
 
Frankly, I believe this is the crux of your problem. You don't trust the well preformed research and give it equal weight with poorly done research and research where the conclusions don't match the data.

Paranoid conspiracy theorist often believe that most everyone is lying. It makes it hard to find any truth.

I get what you are saying, and actually agree with you by and large. My statement that you have highlighted is an (over) generalisation in summary of a number of other points.

It is difficult for the layperson to establish the truth, they do not have the time nor the training to establish the facts beyond any reason and as such have to rely on the politicians and lay publications.

So how does Joe find out the truth of this. How do we clear the water of mud to see the truth?
Many say: It's simple - go to the source. The fact is that Joe wont go anywhere near it, so this suggestion is not going to come to pass and (probably) nor should it.

But Joe has an opinion and that opinion remains important to the future research requirements, funding and political aspirations of many. Sadly, in many ways - but such is the nature of this beast.

Is it not true that in the public arena the water is already so muddied it is in fact hard to tell the truth from the lies?
Should Joe believe East Anglia, the IPCC, etc. The players, Pachuri (dare I say) Gore? Do I look to the other side and McIntyre and Monckton. IoP memos or a look outside my window. And what of the genuine scientists who are on either side of the debate. What of the controversies; they don't have parliamentary hearings for no reason. Climategate, Wiki etc etc etc. The list goes on.

And you are right. I don't trust some of the well researched data and conclusions. That is not based on some paranoid conspiracy theory, that my friend is based on an entire field that has grown to big, too fast and has to some extent been hijacked by greed, ideology, politics and/or power and has lost much of its integrity - that isn't my fault, nor Joe's, nor the deniers (although they may have helped), the warmers themselves have caused that.

Can we remove those things?
I doubt it too and so we go around and around and around.

Big endians and little endians all playing off against one another, until what? Six rebellions and civil war?

I have only a couple of suggestions (that I have already touched on) but they are far too difficult and unrealistic to manage - as one person said "fat chance".

In a nutshell we need to:
- let the scientists do what they do without fear nor favour with regard to results. (Many see the data is made to match the result required)
- allocate appropriate levels of funding for valid research
- remove the alarmists and their predictions
- remove the political and ideological connections
- start from scratch (possibly) and reconfirm all the major conclusions.

Failing this, what do we do?
I for one can see this ending only one of two ways and both ways are appalling if AGW is real:
- constant continued arguing until it either blows over (and proven false) or is too late (and proven true)
- The science of AGW falls into further controversy and ignominy until it is a political turd that no one will touch.

Thats why it seems to me we need to 'go back to the drawing board' and start over.
 
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http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/theories_facts_and_denialism.html

March 06, 2010

Theories, Facts, and 'Denialism'


… snip ...

The Wikipedia entry on "Denialism" portrays "Deniers" as engaging in the following: Conspiracy Theories, Cherry-Picking, the use of False Experts, Moving the Goalpost, and Logical Fallacies.


The very people who came up with this silly "ism" are guilty of every one of these.*


First, they attribute every challenge to the AGW theory to dark ulterior motives and often point to an underlying conspiracy. To hear them tell it, you would think that a wicked cabal made up of George W. Bush, Halliburton, Dick Cheney, Talk Radio, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Bird, The Dallas Cowboys Defensive Line, and Karl Rove's tailor is trying to discredit these hard-working warriors for truth.


Cherry-Picking: The tree-ring evidence used to support the temperature change assertions required for the AGW thesis were taken from a very small number of anomalous samples. Cherry-picking extraordinaire!


As for false experts, has anyone heard of a fellow named "Al Gore"? The former U.S. vice president and divinity school flunk-out has no scientific background, yet this eco-guru has earned a Nobel Prize for his error-riddled slide show, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in climate-related business ventures.*


Moving the Goalpost: Depending on the weather during a given year, we are either told that high temperatures are evidence of global warming or that low temperatures are evidence of global warming. (In logic, they call that a "tautology." In real life, they call that "having your cake and eating it, too.") Those goalposts are not just moving; they're sprinting!


Finally, the logical fallacies committed during the Climategate imbroglio are too numerous to count, but their abusive use of just one fallacy -- the argumentum ad hominem (personal attack) -- is so noteworthy that even Triumph the Insult Comic Dog is reportedly telling them to ease up.


Gee, this makes the AGW cohort sound a lot like "Deniers," doesn't it?

http://weeklystandard.com/print/articles/denial "In Denial. The meltdown of the climate campaign."
 
Thanks BAC, very interesting.
I was particularly taken by the part about the “issue-attention cycle” originally outlined by political scientist Anthony Downs and the parralels to AGW. It all fits. Here are the stages in brief:

Pre-problem: A problem exists, but only some experts and interest groups are alarmed.
Discovery and Enthusiasm: There is alarm and concern over a discovered environmental problem. People band together to support a solution and attack the problem.
Realization: The public starts to understand the cost and difficulty of making progress on the issue.
Decline in Interest: Because of this realization, there is a decline in public interest (and therefore media attention).
Post-problem: The issue isn’t resolved but there is less attention on it. However, the overall level of interest is higher than when the problem was discovered. This may result in small recurrences of interest.”
 
And my point to you since you joined these forums is that you are wrong, and taking the fundamentally anti-skeptic position that science doesn't matter.

Psst lomiller, you forgot to read the rest of the post that actually explained that statement of mine.:p

Cherry picking being a favourite pasttime of the warmers really shouldn't be an excuse either. :)

But by all means, attack the arguer, not the argument - I thrive on it, don't you know?
Has anyone else noted how the ad homs and personalised attacks on the 'deniers' have become more and more the norm in recent times. I wonder why - actually I think I know why: Loser talk.:D

And your opinion of my correctness or otherwise, means very litt next to noth almost not absolutely nothing to me. But thanks for your interest. :D
 
Psst lomiller, you forgot to read the rest of the post that actually explained that statement of mine.


the rest was baseless unsupported claims. furthermore you have repeated you claim that science doesn't matter many many times. sometime with an excuse to believe that, more often without. either way you are still wrong.
 
the rest was baseless unsupported claims. furthermore you have repeated you claim that science doesn't matter many many times. sometime with an excuse to believe that, more often without. either way you are still wrong.

Please prove I ever said that (in bold). I will even make it easy for you: you only need to show me once saying that, I wont hold you to the "repeated" part.

It never happened, I never said it, because I do not believe it.

Please prove or retract.
 
My post probably came off as more of an attack than I intended. I was pretty skeptical of AGW for about three years mostly because I was paying too much attention to the BS alarmists. The problem that just because the most extreme alarmists are most likely wrong (as in 'not enough water on the earth to do that' kind of wrong), doesn't make the science wrong.


In a nutshell we need to:
- let the scientists do what they do without fear nor favour with regard to results. (Many see the data is made to match the result required)

You believe that there are really that many scientists are that biased? For the most part that's what scientists proforming well conducted research are already doing. The only thing they have to fear is being wrong and having that come out in the ample peer review.

- allocate appropriate levels of funding for valid research

Granted, although obviously people differ on what levels are 'appropriate' and which lines of research are 'valid'. Continuing to fund debunked lines isn't very useful except to debunk them more.

- remove the alarmists and their predictions

I have no clue what you mean by 'remove'. They have free speech in our society, as well they should. Perhaps you meant 'ignore' as many people in the relevant fields already do. Greenpeace doesn't get a lot of pull in science, much to my great pleasure.

- remove the political and ideological connections

Easier said than done, although I mostly agree. That means Inhoff and his ilk as well you know.

- start from scratch (possibly) and reconfirm all the major conclusions.

Here is were that train jumps the track. No. Just no. This is exactly what anti-vaxers, Truthers, and other woowoo always cry for, and it is simply a massive waste of time. 'All we want is a REAL investigation.' The major conclusions are already supported by many pillars of evidence, and we don't throw out the established core no matter how much controversy remains on the periphery. Of course there are some flaws and holes, but that hardly invalids the major conclusions. Yes, it can be hard for the lay person to figure that out, as it was for myself way back when I joined this forum. But it is there.

The other main objection of course is that many of the changes proposed by scientists and researchers are good even if AGW is completely wrong. Advanced energy and transport infrastructure. Better city design. Newer housing techniques. These are all useful areas of research and development.


Failing this, what do we do?
I for one can see this ending only one of two ways and both ways are appalling if AGW is real:
- constant continued arguing until it either blows over (and proven false) or is too late (and proven true)
- The science of AGW falls into further controversy and ignominy until it is a political turd that no one will touch.

That is the problem with always wanting 'just more questions answered' before doing ANYTHING. I don't know if you've been linked to it, but Brian Dunning of Skeptoid did and absolutely great podcast of this. It's general, but I agree with 90% of it.


Thats why it seems to me we need to 'go back to the drawing board' and start over.

But they've been back to the drawing board over and over. Continuing to ask gets incredulous at some point.
 
My post probably came off as more of an attack than I intended. I was pretty skeptical of AGW for about three years mostly because I was paying too much attention to the BS alarmists. The problem that just because the most extreme alarmists are most likely wrong (as in 'not enough water on the earth to do that' kind of wrong), doesn't make the science wrong.

I agree.

You believe that there are really that many scientists are that biased? For the most part that's what scientists proforming well conducted research are already doing. The only thing they have to fear is being wrong and having that come out in the ample peer review.

If one believes the "nobody goes to work to do a bad job" mentality I agree with you. I did point out that "many think" that conclusions are preconceived by the parameters set. All I am trying to do is ensure that any perception of preconceived results (from whatever influence) is removed.

Granted, although obviously people differ on what levels are 'appropriate' and which lines of research are 'valid'. Continuing to fund debunked lines isn't very useful except to debunk them more.

Yup.

I have no clue what you mean by 'remove'. They have free speech in our society, as well they should. Perhaps you meant 'ignore' as many people in the relevant fields already do. Greenpeace doesn't get a lot of pull in science, much to my great pleasure.

I did mean ignore - thanks.:)

Easier said than done, although I mostly agree. That means Inhoff and his ilk as well you know.

Fantastic!

Here is were that train jumps the track. No. Just no. This is exactly what anti-vaxers, Truthers, and other woowoo always cry for, and it is simply a massive waste of time. 'All we want is a REAL investigation.' The major conclusions are already supported by many pillars of evidence, and we don't throw out the established core no matter how much controversy remains on the periphery. Of course there are some flaws and holes, but that hardly invalids the major conclusions. Yes, it can be hard for the lay person to figure that out, as it was for myself way back when I joined this forum. But it is there.

I did say "possibly" start again. My intention was not to be taken literally here. I think we are on the same page though in when I say "reconfirm all the major conclusions" and you say "supported by pillars of evidence". These could be readily reconfirmed shouldn't they?

The other main objection of course is that many of the changes proposed by scientists and researchers are good even if AGW is completely wrong. Advanced energy and transport infrastructure. Better city design. Newer housing techniques. These are all useful areas of research and development.

Fair enough.

That is the problem with always wanting 'just more questions answered' before doing ANYTHING. I don't know if you've been linked to it, but Brian Dunning of Skeptoid did and absolutely great podcast of this. It's general, but I agree with 90% of it.

Not a clue who or what it was about - I assume it will be easy enough to find, I'll see what I come up with.

But they've been back to the drawing board over and over. Continuing to ask gets incredulous at some point.

First I've heard of it honestly and forgive me for disbelieving it - at least in part - after hearing Jones saying things like "it would be impossible to replicate" (or the like) since the data has been lost.

Thanks for the response Tyr - it's good to know that at least some reasonable discussion might be had.

In short, would you agree that in order to get the science and the public's perception of same back on track, some of what we have outlined is required?
 
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For some other examples take this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155937&highlight=warming&page=3
On the science - I do not debate it - I can't and wont - any of you will run rings around me. Throwing it up as evidence in an effort to convert the non believer (especially in aggressive ways) does nothing for the cause at all.


In that same yhread you make it clear that political debate is sufficient for you to question scenitfic conclusions.

But! There is debate in the eyes of Joe and all the other people like Joe. These masses see it often one way or the other depending on any number of factors: eg. where they heard it first, how it fits with their political leanings, how any 'solution' might disaffect him etc.

Joe sees the debate and until something happens that will change his mind, his mind is made.

This has been my point all along.
 
On this very page you responded to a post thus:

You even admit you have been saying it since you started posting here...


Fail


That is not evidence of me saying I believe the "science doesn't matter".

Prove or retract.
 
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