Merged Interesting Analysis of Changing Media Attitudes toward 9/11 Alternative Theories

[deep]

ETA: How do you hold anyone accountable for 9/11? How do you hold a specific person accountable for an unpredictable catastrophic event?

You're the one who said, "9/11 was the result of massive failures by multiple government agencies", but now you're telling me it was an "unpredictable catastrophic event"? That makes no sense - you can't have it both ways.

Also - it doesn't sound like you're familiar with the concept of accountability, so let me give you an example: after Russia's poor performance in the Winter Olympics, Dmitry Medvedev demanded resignations from the country's Olympic officials. Those officials did not compete; however, they were in charge of the system. When the system failed, they were held accountable.

 

[TruthersLie]

My exchange with Lance deHaven-Smith

Dear Mr. XXXXX,

A summary of my views on 9-11 is available on my website at dehaven-smith.com. Go to the website and click on the tab that says “SCADs.”

Lance deHaven-Smith

Going to SCADS we find
http://dehaven-smith.com/faq/default.html

And he is most definately in the truther/conspiracy theorist camp. But he wants to change the term to SCADS (social crimes against democracy) which is rather catchy.
and has this

7. Was 9/11 a SCAD?
Much circumstantial evidence suggests the Bush-Cheney Administration may have somehow been involved in 9-11. The Administration ignored many warning signs that the 9-11 terrorist attack was imminent and that the attack might include hijackings; the CIA had a working relationship with bin Laden, and provided weapons, money, and technical support to Islamist terrorists in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation; some officials appear to have received warnings not to fly on 9-11; the Twin Towers and Building 7, which collapsed at near free-fall acceleration, are suspected of having been brought down by controlled demolition; chemical tests have found traces of Thermate (an incendiary for cutting steel) in dust from the Trade Center site; and, as is usual with most SCADs, the Twin Towers crime scene was cleaned up quickly and given only a superficial investigation.

 

[TruthersLie]

You're the one who said, "9/11 was the result of massive failures by multiple government agencies", but now you're telling me it was an "unpredictable catastrophic event"? That makes no sense - you can't have it both ways.

Also - it doesn't sound like you're familiar with the concept of accountability, so let me give you an example: after Russia's poor performance in the Winter Olympics, Dmitry Medvedev demanded resignations from the country's Olympic officials. Those officials did not compete; however, they were in charge of the system. When the system failed, they were held accountable.

Deep.

So when a category 5 tornado rips through a town, who is held accountable? Who do you fire? Who do you round up and make pay for the damages?

I don't disagree that the heads of the FBI, CIA, and NSA should have been canned. I never have. Grave errors were made.

I'm very familiar with what accountability is and how it works. So by having the russian head of the olympics resign.. they will get gold next time? REally?

comparing apples to oranges... tsk tsk tsk.

 

[TruthersLie]

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/state-crimes-against-democracy/

State Crimes Against Democracy
by Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff / March 3rd, 2010

New research in the journal American Behavioral Scientist (Sage publications, February 2010) addresses the concept of “State Crimes Against Democracy” (SCAD). Professor Lance deHaven-Smith from Florida State University writes that SCADs involve highlevel government officials, often in combination with private interests, that engage in covert activities for political advantages and power. Proven SCADs since World War II include McCarthyism (fabrication of evidence of a communist infiltration), Gulf of Tonkin Resolution (President Johnson and Robert McNamara falsely claimed North Vietnam attacked a US ship), burglary of the office of Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist in effort to discredit Ellsberg, the Watergate break-in, Iran-Contra, Florida’s 2000 Election (felon disenfranchisement program), and fixed intelligence on WMDs to justify the Iraq War.1

Other suspected SCADs include the assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald, the shooting of George Wallace, the October Surprise near the end of the Carter presidency, military grade anthrax mailed to Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy, Martin Luther King’s assassination, and the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 on September 11, 2001. The proven SCADs have a long trail of congressional hearings, public records, and academic research establishing the truth of the activities. The suspected SCADs listed above have substantial evidence of covert actions with countervailing deniability that tend to leave the facts in dispute.1

The term “conspiracy theory” is often used to denigrate and discredit inquiry into the veracity of suspected SCADs. Labeling SCAD research as “conspiracy theory” is an effective method of preventing ongoing investigations from being reported in the corporate media and keep them outside of broader public scrutiny. Psychologist Laurie Manwell, University of Guelph, addresses the psychological advantage that SCAD actors hold in the public sphere. Manwell, writing in American Behavioral Scientist (Sage 2010) states, “research shows that people are far less willing to examine information that disputes, rather than confirms, their beliefs … pre-existing beliefs can interfere with SCADs inquiry, especially in regards to September 11, 2001.”2

So this person also didn't read the article in question as those are directly from the abstract or from his home page.

wowswers... I love it when truthers just copy and paste. Now go and READ the articles you are trying to pass off.

 

[bill smith]

Campus Times: march 04 2010
.
'' AE911Truth has gathered evidence that they claim disproves the government's official theory proposed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that the towers experienced a gravitational collapse. A petition demanding that Attorney General Eric Holder convene a grand jury and conduct a new investigation was submitted to the office of every member of the U.S. Congress. Simultaneous press conferences were held in 47 cities across the globe. Recently AE911Truth concluded an official meeting with 12 members of the Japanese parliament to review the evidence of the event that sparked the global War on Terror.''

http://www.campustimes.org/features/the-movement-behind-9-11-1.2178675

 

[beachnut]

Campus Times: march 04 2010
.
'' AE911Truth has gathered evidence that they claim disproves the government's official theory proposed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that the towers experienced a gravitational collapse. A petition demanding that Attorney General Eric Holder convene a grand jury and conduct a new investigation was submitted to the office of every member of the U.S. Congress. Simultaneous press conferences were held in 47 cities across the globe. Recently AE911Truth concluded an official meeting with 12 members of the Japanese parliament to review the evidence of the event that sparked the global War on Terror.''

http://www.campustimes.org/features/the-movement-behind-9-11-1.2178675

Wow you found an idiot news person who wrote an article out of ignorance. He took the lies of 911 truth and he was fooled. Too stupid to expose the liars, so out of ignorance he joins them. He could start a new group, Dolts for 911 Truth.

You did great job showing some media contributors are dirt dumb and can't figure out 911.

 

[bill smith]

I have received several responses to my emails to the authors of the papers in the American Behavioral Scientist.



From this reply, he does sound like a truther. Or at least someone who feels that the "questions" haven't been addressed.


My reply


ETA:
Dr. Witt's reply


So then we have it. I do not expect any more communications with him, and I will not contact him again until I have read his analysis.

What a great line.

'' Where powerful agencies fail to take up grave matters, there suspicion will rush in. Public consciousness, not unlike nature herself, abhors a vacuum. ''

 

[tfk]

TruthersLie,

Regarding Dr. Witt's comments:

As pertains to the publication of what too often passes for scholarship...I have been in this business long enough to know that truth is not the arbiter of publication acceptances.

"Publication acceptance" is pretty darn irrelevant to everyone except the authors.

"Publication acceptance" of a paper containing untruths is a smear on an author's academic reputation.

The competent, rigorous, demanding PURSUIT of truth is required of honorable academics in all fields. Especially ones as significant as this one.

And in engineering, the truth is not nearly as subjective, or difficult to discern, as it is in "behavioral science".

Frivolous, lazy or biased efforts at pursuing the truth are unworthy of real scholars.

And again as for email, this place can scarcely more honor the truth than it can honor the vagaries of the 9/11 incident and its molten-like questions left still begging.

The truth is honored whenever it is spoken, defended & demanded.

Whether in an email, on an internet blog, written in crayon, in day-to-day conversation, or in a peer-reviewed paper.

The contrapositive is also true, whenever falsehoods are tolerated. (As they are frequently. Usually out of cowardice.)

Where powerful agencies fail to take up grave matter, there suspicion will rush in. Public consciousness, not unlike nature herself, abhors a vacuum.

And when those powerful agencies do take the matter seriously, convene a bunch of proven experts & produce an abundantly elaborate report that alleged scholars, utterly unfamiliar with the subject matter, reject with bucketfuls of false information produced by other amateurs, is that STILL the powerful agency's fault?

Or should the credentialed, scholarly academic perhaps stop looking for others to blame? And perhaps do a bit of personal soul-searching regarding whether or not he has implemented a first-rate epistemology in this matter.

Would the academic accept from a grad student the excuse that "well, all of the poets were saying this about brain surgery. And I didn't really have the time to check out what the brain surgeons said in reply"?

Just my opinion:

Tom

 

[tfk]

TL,

Deep.

So when a category 5 tornado rips through a town, who is held accountable? Who do you fire? Who do you round up and make pay for the damages?

I don't disagree that the heads of the FBI, CIA, and NSA should have been canned. I never have. Grave errors were made.

In matters this huge, I really like the military's approach to the matter: "It may not have been your fault, but it was your responsibility."

When a harbor pilot ran the USS Enterprise aground off of San Francisco (IIRC), even tho no captain in the world would think to override the directions of a harbor pilot (whose specific job is to know the location of the local reefs), that captain's career was over.

He was not humiliated or punished for something that was not his fault. But his career was ended, because it was his responsibility. And that message went out very clearly to the captains of all the other billion dollar ships in the US Navy.

Nobody has the power to affect the course of a tornado. People do have the power to implement changes in other people's behavior.

And you can bet that it rolled downhill, to that harbor pilot (who was, no doubt, punished & canned), and all the other pilots. And the training instructors. And the chart makers & updaters, etc.

I would have been impressed if the heads of those agencies voluntarily resigned. Too much to ask, I guess.

Just as I would be impressed with any president & Secretary of State who resigned after allowing the US to get into a war. Such as Bush senior (in 91) and Bush Jr (in 04). Because they had failed to find a way to keep us out of it.

Or perhaps the entire congress for failing to pass a truly balanced budget. On time.

I think that these actions would establish great precedents.

Not their faults, perhaps. But definitely their responsibilities.

And, BTW, no, I have not been smoking crack to make these suggestions. And I know that they'll never be implemented.

"I had a dream..."


Tom

 

[deep]

So when a category 5 tornado rips through a town, who is held accountable? Who do you fire? Who do you round up and make pay for the damages?

I don't disagree that the heads of the FBI, CIA, and NSA should have been canned. I never have. Grave errors were made.

Wait - you're comparing 9/11 to a tornado (i.e., an unpredictable catastrophic event), but then you go on to say that the heads of the FBI/CIA/NSA should have been fired. Again - which is it? Why should they be fired if it was an unpredictable event?

 

[twinstead]

Can you imagine how many brown envelopes the perps have given their various lawyers ? All marked 'Open in the event of my suspicious death'
All those perps Bush,Cheney,Rice etc wre welded together by the enorormity of their crimes. That's why none of them were sacrificed as a scapegoat. They are scared witless of each other.

Loyalty my ass..

it appears your marriage to an "inside job" and "crimes" and all your made-up silliness about no planes and smoke generators and such has blinded you to what tfk's point was.

 

[twinstead]

Wait - you're comparing 9/11 to a tornado (i.e., an unpredictable catastrophic event), but then you go on to say that the heads of the FBI/CIA/NSA should have been fired. Again - which is it? Why should they be fired if it was an unpredictable event?

Well then maybe the weather forecasters should be arrested?

 

[RedIbis]

Not only were the biggest incompetents not fired, many were promoted. Condaleeza Rice for one.

Hell, they gave Richard Myers the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

 

[TruthersLie]

Wait - you're comparing 9/11 to a tornado (i.e., an unpredictable catastrophic event), but then you go on to say that the heads of the FBI/CIA/NSA should have been fired. Again - which is it? Why should they be fired if it was an unpredictable event?

Deep.

PERSONALLY I would have liked to see them fired. PERSONALLY I think they ****ed up and because of the systematic failures, I'd PERSONALLY love to have seen them canned. Personally, like many people, I would have wanted a scapegoat.

Yet, PROFESSIONALLY how do you assign blame? Who do you sack? How can you assign blame for a catastrophe that was unforseen?

 

[Toke]

I think the reason for the lack of consequences is that there is enough incompetence to go around to involve the white house as well. So if any blaming got started a lot of people would have implicated Bush and co.

There was a general agreement among the people who screwed up (just about everybody) to leave the subject alone.

 

[Cuddles]

Several more posts have been removed. Continuing to ignore moderator warnings will likely result in further action, up to and including suspension and/or banning.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[aggle-rithm]

Yes, the US agencies involved screwed up big time. They didnt expect it. They where not prepared for it and when it happened they where not organised enough to handle it.

Indeed, if they HAD been prepared for it, then the terrorists would have struck somewhere else. It was no coincidence that they hit us where we were most vulnerable. The terrorists probed those vulnerabilities for years to determine where they could strike with the greatest chance of success.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Deep.

PERSONALLY I would have liked to see them fired. PERSONALLY I think they ****ed up and because of the systematic failures, I'd PERSONALLY love to have seen them canned. Personally, like many people, I would have wanted a scapegoat.

Yet, PROFESSIONALLY how do you assign blame? Who do you sack? How can you assign blame for a catastrophe that was unforseen?

This is similar to the situation in Germany after WWII. Officially, all the Nazis in key positions were supposed to be fired. But then...who would do the work required for those key positions? You could hire different people, but who would train them? General Patton, for one, found that he had to keep them around in spite of the de-Nazification policy.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The term “conspiracy theory” is often used to denigrate and discredit inquiry into the veracity of suspected SCADs. Labeling SCAD research as “conspiracy theory” is an effective method of preventing ongoing investigations from being reported in the corporate media and keep them outside of broader public scrutiny. Psychologist Laurie Manwell, University of Guelph, addresses the psychological advantage that SCAD actors hold in the public sphere. Manwell, writing in American Behavioral Scientist (Sage 2010) states, “research shows that people are far less willing to examine information that disputes, rather than confirms, their beliefs … pre-existing beliefs can interfere with SCADs inquiry, especially in regards to September 11, 2001.”2

Congratulations, now you have a cool new acronym you can use to try and legitimize your nonsense.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Not only were the biggest incompetents not fired, many were promoted. Condaleeza Rice for one.

It's the American way. The guys that came up with New Coke in the '80's should have been fired, but they were given bonuses instead.