9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Doc Daneeka]

Hmm. Wayne 'The Great One' Gretzky, Terry Fox, Paul Henderson, Pierre Trudeau, John A. Macdonald, Benton Fraser, William Shatner, Louis Riel, Celine Dion. These are people one thinks of when one thinks of 'Famous Canadians'. Infact, I asked a good Canadian friend of mine if they had heard of Ernst Zuendel, and got a negative response.

Seems he's not one of the most well known Canadians after all. Then again, the Canadians wouldn't really celebrate a Nazi. They'd shoot them. Pretty good at it, from what I've read.

He was pretty well known here at one point. He used to live not far from my place, and it was not at all uncommon to see large crowds of angry people outside the place. He even had his home firebombed.

While not condoning violence, I have to point out that he was indeed quite well known at one point

Oh yes, one other thing. Celine Dion shouldn't count as Canadian now. We are perfectly happy to let the Americans keep her...

 

[Uzzy]

I stand corrected on the amount of fame Ernst Zuendel has received then.

 

[dudalb]

I stand corrected on the amount of fame Ernst Zuendel has received then.

Be comforted by the fact that the fame Ernst Zuendel has is as an Crackpot Bigot and Hate Monger.

 

[Father Dagon]

Be comforted by the fact that the fame Ernst Zuendel has is as an Crackpot Bigot and Hate Monger.

But also a creator of lulz, in his own strange way. Compare the joke Magic Hitler Hats! with the dead-serious Samisdat Hollow Earth Expedition. And the picture of him wearing a magic helmet in the company of his sleazy bodyguard can't simply be staged.

 

[Mondial]

Ok Magz, I have read it through once, so I may have missed a few points here, but most of the information in that book has been debunked/proven false over and over again in the last 30 years...

Just a few highlights:

- There is no information to the contrary that Goebbels diary was anything but genuine; it contains numbers and references to Hitler's resolve to destroy the jews. Goebbels estimate alone makes it into the 6 million range.

- Next, this Butz guy has no clue when it comes to the German language. Vergasung definitely means 'gassing people'. All ovens ran on solid fuel not gassified.

- Mounds of human ashes were found at Maidanek and Treblinka. The ashes at Auschwitz were dumped in the river and used as fertilizer.

- The crematoria used where even way more efficient than your 'loved-ones-ashes-to-ashes' variety which already leave less than a shoebox. For 6 million corpses there would be around 60.000 cubic metres left. That is not a lot to disperse across Europe.

- The inventory showed a gas-tight door and showerheads.

<anecdotal>
And then there's my personal anecdotal evidence; I was born in Germany and half of my relatives are German.

Living in the Netherlands with it's long-lived hatred against the Germans, it was natural for me to talk to the old-timers about the war.

Some of them worked at Degussa and they told me they knew what they were doing and why. I leave the whole 'feeling guilty and ashamed' out of it, as that is a matter I simply won't discuss with outsiders.

One of the old-timers was a Stuka pilot and he also got to know quite a lot of what was going on, he now gets all worked up when he sees that revisionist nonsense.
</anecdotal>

So, that book with a lot of factual errors and most of it speculation made you a believer?

So you don't think THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY is worthwhile? What about the documentaries at the following site www.holocaustdenialvideos.com ? Have you watched any of them?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Be comforted by the fact that the fame Ernst Zuendel has is as an Crackpot Bigot and Hate Monger.

So far the voice of the SPLC highlighting Zuendel from a moral angle.

The real question of course if, is he right?

Here pictures from the release of this Western Vaclav Havel (many more of these Havels to follow):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFekU6KS1hA

 

[Nonpareil]

So far the voice of the SPLC highlighting Zuendel from a moral angle.

The real question of course if, is he right?

And the answer is no.

/thread

 

[Moss]

So far the voice of the SPLC highlighting Zuendel from a moral angle.

The real question of course if, is he right?

Here pictures from the release of this Western Vaclav Havel (many more of these Havels to follow):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFekU6KS1hA

I have seldom seen such a boring video with such melodramatic and over the top music. "Hmm, no drama, maybe we can improve that by adding a horribly overdone score". (Did they get the rights to that music btw.?)
And as for the Western Vaclac Havel: Are you kidding me? I have never heard that Havel lied about his credentials like Zündel. Nor have Zündel's writings any literary or historiographic merit.

 

[Manopolus]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but....

Investigator, investigate the holocaust for yourself, complete with photos, documents, etc. here.

(added) And please tell me where they are wrong, rather than merely asserting it.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but....

Investigator, investigate the holocaust for yourself, complete with photos, documents, etc. here.

(added) And please tell me where they are wrong, rather than merely asserting it.

Sigh, in page 85 somebody comes up with a link to nizkor, an obscure one man operation and thinks that the holocaust (gassing of millions of Jews) is proven.

Show me the document/photo that proves the holocaust in the industrial gassing sense of Jews.

Oh and nobody denies the deportations, the shootings and the hardship.

And spare me Belsen and Trojan's favorite: the doctored Krema-V picture.

 

[Uzzy]

Now now, HeyLeroy linked to Nizkor on the first page, and I don't think you ever replied to that. As for documents, I suppose the Wannsee Protocol would fall under your requirements.

 

[VonKleist]

Sigh, in page 85 somebody comes up with a link to nizkor, an obscure one man operation and thinks that the holocaust (gassing of millions of Jews) is proven.

How are you defining the term 'Holocaust?'
Is it gassing only? Gassing of Jews only? Mass murder in general? Mass murder of Jews only? You appear to be using the term to mean 'gassing of millions of Jews'. But on page 1 of this thread you said:

So here is my request to the local Israel-Lobby here on this forum (dudalb, dtugg, parky, finewine and a few hundred more): demonstrate to me that 6 million people were gassed in WW2 under the Nazis.

You must surely be aware that no serious historian claims that 6 million Jews were gassed, and that the 6 million figure refers to total deaths.

How many Jews do you think were shot as a matter of interest?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Now now, HeyLeroy linked to Nizkor on the first page, and I don't think you ever replied to that. As for documents, I suppose the Wannsee Protocol would fall under your requirements.

You cannot expect me to reply to a link pointing to thousands of photos and documents. I want to go into detail. Show me a single photo/document that proves your point.

Nobody denies the Wannsee conference. Revisionists consider Wannsee as the 'kickoff meeting' for grand scale deportations, deportations that nobody denies. The minutes of that meeting are more controversial. Several different 'copies' of that document exist (posted by me earlier). This document conveniently was found by that Kempner swindler (a known liar). But even in it's present form this document can be considered as preparing deportations and nothing else.

 

[9/11-investigator]

How are you defining the term 'Holocaust?'
Is it gassing only? Gassing of Jews only? Mass murder in general? Mass murder of Jews only? You appear to be using the term to mean 'gassing of millions of Jews'. But on page 1 of this thread you said:



You must surely be aware that no serious historian claims that 6 million Jews were gassed, and that the 6 million figure refers to total deaths.

How many Jews do you think were shot as a matter of interest?

Holocaust = murdering millions of Jews for no other reason than being Jews. And the bulk of this is said to be carried out in the infamous gaschambers. And yes, I admitted that according to the American/Soviet version of history, not 6 but maybe 4 million Jews were gassed. That's the core of the holocaust story and subject of this debate we are having.

 

[Uzzy]

You cannot expect me to reply to a link pointing to thousands of photos and documents. I want to go into detail. Show me a single photo/document that proves your point.

Nobody denies the Wannsee conference. Revisionists consider Wannsee as the 'kickoff meeting' for grand scale deportations, deportations that nobody denies. The minutes of that meeting are more controversial. Several different 'copies' of that document exist (posted by me earlier). This document conveniently was found by that Kempner swindler (a known liar). But even in it's present form this document can be considered as preparing deportations and nothing else.

Actually, you do have to reply to links that show thousands of photos and documents. You see, when we link to sites like Nizkor, or bring up the Nuremberg trials, our points are supported by mountains of evidence. You have to disprove them, given your extraordinary claim.

Infact, you'd have to prove.

a) The Holocaust is a Fraud
b) How it was done

Nitpicking at one document or one photo won't change anything. And every time we've brought up documents and/or photos you've responded with more qualifications and obfuscations. Like in this one, where I brought up Wannsee. You argued that 'Kempner conveniently found it', whereas in reality there was nothing convenient about him finding it. He was, after all, working as assistant US Chief Counsel at Nuremberg, a role in which he would have spent a long time looking through Nazi documents. This wasn't a man off the street who pulled a document out of a hat.

Now, you argue that the document only suggests a fate of large scale deportations, which if you take it utterly literally, it does. However, one should be aware that turns of phrases were used. Deportation to the East was one such phrase, and others at the Conference admitted freely that the phrase referred to Deportations to the Death Camps. I mean, this is one of the paragraphs from the minutes by Heydrich.

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes. The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as the seed of a new Jewish revival"

What do you think he meant by "have to be treated accordingly"? Especially when you also take Himmler's statement at Posen into account.

"I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very serious subject. We shall now discuss it absolutely openly among ourselves, nevertheless we shall never speak of it in public. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race."

Eichmann was a key figure at the Wannsee Conference. Why, if the term 'Deportation to the East' was intended literally, did Eichmann not argue that at his trial? Why did he not deny the holocaust at his trial? Why did he argue that he was only following orders?

 

[Toke]

Eichmann was a key figure at the Wannsee Conference. Why, if the term 'Deportation to the East' was intended literally, did Eichmann not argue that at his trial? Why did he not deny the holocaust at his trial? Why did he argue that he was only following orders?

This one is the simplest argument to understand, it does not require any knowledge of how to run a labour camp system, soilradar, German language, etc..

Somehow it tends to be overlooked by deniers.
I have always wondered why they tried the "following orders" line, standing up for their convictions seems more honest to me and I do not believe it would have made any difference to the outcome.

The thing that really scare me is that maybe they did not have that conviction and butchered millions of people knowing it was wrong.

 

[Moss]

I think part of the attitudes of postwar nazis can be explained with that during the nazi regime they were opportunists that didn't care one bit about their victims as long as the job paid and they advanced in rank. That also explains the almost total lack of resistance against the invasion by nazi top brass. They all scurried like rats to conceal their identities and flee the sinking ship.
I think some of the zealous nazis like Himmler had a harder time rationalizing their behaviour. See for example his emphasis during the Posen speech about how the Jews needed to be killed but that they didn't personally profit from it from fear of contamination. "We killed them but we didn't personally rob them." is a strange attitude.

 

[Toke]

I think part of the attitudes of postwar nazis can be explained with that during the nazi regime they were opportunists that didn't care one bit about their victims as long as the job paid and they advanced in rank. That also explains the almost total lack of resistance against the invasion by nazi top brass. They all scurried like rats to conceal their identities and flee the sinking ship.
I think some of the zealous nazis like Himmler had a harder time rationalizing their behaviour. See for example his emphasis during the Posen speech about how the Jews needed to be killed but that they didn't personally profit from it from fear of contamination. "We killed them but we didn't personally rob them." is a strange attitude.

I guess my problem is that such atrocities were commited by such "small" people, if they could at least have stood up at their trial and said that they did the right thing and the world should be grateful.

"We killed them but we didn't personally rob them."

It would have been more honest to say "we killed them in the most economic manner possible, for the benefit of the Reich"

The personal part seems fair enough, a civil servant is supposed to remain detached and do his job without personal gain above or beyond the pay grade.

 

[Moss]

I'm still waiting for one document/photo of undeniable authenticity that proves there was a Jewish conspiracy to fake the holocaust. Just one...

 

[Maja]

I'm still waiting for one document/photo of undeniable authenticity that proves there was a Jewish conspiracy to fake the holocaust. Just one...

I'd like to second this. In the absence of evidence, it would be interesting to see, at least, a plausible fictional scenario about the way this conspiracy was carried out. How did the conspirators manage to convince camp survivors and former camp officials to tell the same story?