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Magnetic reconnection and physical processes

You’re welcome Dave.

Given your avatar some fresh faces, even in a plasma, might not be a bad thing (about the only character I like in that dang show).
 
Curl, twist and helicity are all having to do with rotation.
Gyromotion is the particle rotating about the axis, and curl is the magnetic field rotating about the axis. If there are electrons with a parallel velocity I would expect a curl component.

Curl is the mathematical description of the rotation of the magnetic field using vectors.
It is the vector rotation of the magnetic field, following the right hand rule, that causes the helicity(twist) of flux tubes.

I am sorry, but this is really complicating stuff if you start using words differently from how they are defined. Twist is just the "rolling up of the field lines" into a rope like structure, but curl is mathematical operator and helicity is a physical quantity, and both may or may not have something to do with the field lines being twisted.

The curl of the magnetic field is defined as:

[latex]
[\nabla \times {\bf B}]_{k} = dB_{j}/dx_{i} - dB_{i}/dx_{j}
[/latex]

which applies to ANY magnetic field, not just twisted field lines.

And then the helicity of the magnetic field is defined as the volume integral:

[latex]
H = \int_{V} {\bf A} \cdot {\bf B} dr^3
[/latex]

Wher A is the vector potential and

[latex]
{\bf B} = \nabla \times {\bf A}
[/latex]

which works for ANY magnetic field.

tusenfem said:
And again I have no idea what exactly you mean here. Do you mean a flux rope (like the figure MM keeps on presenting)? Or do you mean a plasmoid? Or ... And what do you mean with "wrapped with a curl >0 shell?" Curl of WHAT?

CLUSTER has observed a plasma filled flux tube rope that has a inner core that has field aligned currents with an outer sheath that has a curl component. The outer sheath has a helical twist to it where as the inner core has no twist. This has been anecdotally(visually but no instrument stuck into the flux tube) observed on the solar surface as well..

Now it is getting a bit clearer, you mean to say that cluster observed a flux rope and that the in the centre there is a "straight" field line and if you move away from the centre there is wound up or twisted magnetic field lines, of which the "winding" will change the further you move away from the centre.

Here are two papers by Jim Slavin one of the experts on flux ropes.

However, whether curl(B) > 0 or < 0 depends wholly on the field itself.

So my question to those that want to weigh in on this:

Does reconnection only happen in flux ropes?

If not what is the configuration that you think is required?

No, reconnection does not happen in flux ropes, it happens between flux ropes. As a flux rope only has field in the same direction there is nothing to facilitate reconnection.

What is needed is oppositely directed magnetic field, or at least field lines with a significant angle between them (the so called component reconnection in 3D).

Is reconnection a pinch like process?

No, a pinch is when the current in the flux rope gets so strong that it will "squeeze together' because the magnetic pressure becomes stronger than the plasma pressure (see e.g. Bennett pinch). However, when you pinch a flux you do not get appropriate conditions for reconnection.

Are there electric fields involved in the particle acceleration?

As there is a strongly varying magnetic field there are electric fields, especially along the separatrices (see this recent paper by Parnell et al. (2010).

However, the bulk acceleration of the plasma is provided by the magnetic tension of the field lines, which shoot the whole plasma away from the reconnection point/line in the reconnection exhaust. Observations in the tail show that the main plasma velocity is perpendicular to the magnetic field direction in these flows (with the plasma "glued" to the magnetic field).
 
Nice looking book, but out of my depth. What I hoped for was more of a (relatively) simple diagram with the various regions you guys have have mentioned labeled so I could get a rudimentary idea of the parts you were talking about.:)


Any suggestions about where to find that?


I may have used the wrong terms. I thought someone had said something about different phenomena occurring on the two sides, I apologize for not remembering correctly.:o

Again, I am just wanting to understand a little more about this subject.

Cheers,

Dave

The Man gave good links, which I guess I could have provided.

About sunrise and sunset, there is a difference between the "dawn" side and the "dusk" side of the magnetosphere with the latter being more active than the former.
 
You have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what the word empirical means.

It means it shows up in *CONTROLLED* conditions, unlike all your make believe buddies.

That is pitiful. The same could be said of Tokamaks. Nobody is claiming that there is any Tokamaks in the sun. So, that's 0-0.

Er, what was that? You simply went into pure denial. Where's your demonstration that "magnetic reconnection" causes plasma to reach millions of degrees? 1 for 1 on the denial scale for you.

Which bit, I have no desire to read through all that.

2 for 2.

The lab is not the Sun.

Three for three! You're on a roll.

You don't know the difference between visible and X-rays.

More pure denial on your part. Wow. FYI we use electricity to make x-rays in almost every xray machine on the planet. It has nothing to do with that single image.

You evidently went five for five on the pure denial scale. Congrats.

Occam's razor is one of those other terms you have demonstrated repeatedly you don't understand.

Dude, you're MR theory is toast. We can demonstrate at least 5 key observations of solar atmospheric activity with "electrical discharges". There's absolutely no need whatsoever to introduce "magnetic reconnection" to explain any of these key observations. You're simply ignoring the one "natural" source of gamma rays, x-rays and hot plasma in the universe in favor of something you can't even physically describe in a way that demonstrates it's anything other than ordinary electrical interactions in plasma, and induction.

This cumulative denial thing is getting old and boring.
 
That also makes his experiments inapplicable to situations where there is no insulator to breakdown, e.g. solar atmospheres. In those situations his experiments cannot be applied for the simple reason that electrical discharges cannot exist in a conducting medium like a plasma.

That is complete BS. The twisting action and field arrangements of the magnetic rope creates a low pressure (insulated) region around the rope and the rope itself can and will certainly act as a discharge filament. It all depend on the amount of current flow and the mechanics of the flow.

Did you people even read Cosmic Plasma? Holy cow. This is absurd.
 
And yet, you keep failing to understand it. That "creation of a conducting path" means dielectric breakdown of an insulating medium. But plasma isn't insulating, it's conducting. There's no creation of a conducting path, because the path is already conducting. Why do so many electric universe folks fail to understand that plasma is a conductor?

You and RC are suffering from the same illusion, namely that all plasma is full ionized, and that plasma cannot and will not create "filaments" depending on the amount of current flow involved. This is a key problem for you people. The fact that plasma is a conductor does not prevent it from forming "Birkeland currents" to handle the bulk of the particle flow. You both need to sit down and actually read Cosmic Plasma. Alfven explained all of this stuff exceedingly clearly.
 
OMG. The rest of this mess isn't even worth responding to IMO. The denial thing is so pervasive now it's impossible to miss. The rationalizations about how a "circuit" is not a "discharge" are about as pathetic as it gets. I'm really bored with these conversations at this point. There's nothing going on here but pure denial, bizarre rationalizations and a word games.

There's a childish renaming processes going on here where where everything gets named "magnetic reconnection". Any field topology change is now "magnetic reconnection". Induction is now "magnetic reconnection". Magnetic attraction is now "magnetic reconnection". Magnetic repulsion is now "magnetic reconnection".

I'm sorry but this conversation is just sad at this point IMO. Not one of the five items on that list has ever been directly linked to "magnetic reconnection", but every one of those five key solar observations have been linked to "electrical discharges".
 
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Please demonstrate where "magnetic reconnection" has been empirically linked here on Earth to any of the following solar processes:

A) The temperatures associated with these events.
B) The speed of propagation of the event which Bruce demonstrated in the 50's.
C) The "looping nature" of the discharges themselves as Birkeland actually *predicted* (real empirical predictions too, not your fudge factor, after the fact stuff) over 100 years ago.
D) produce x-rays galore
E) produce gamma rays "naturally" in our own atmosphere.
 
Hey, Michael, you missed this posting. It's got a couple of questions you're ignoring. It also shows out how you've been dishonest by pointing to sources that don't even remotely support your claims.

Oh, and it seems you're still lying about your claim that the "circuit/resistor" approach quite nicely explains heating a coronal loop to millions of degrees. You haven't explained it and you haven't pointed to any other sources that explain it. When are you just going to admit you're wrong about that? Then we can leave that one behind and move on to some of your other wacky claims.

Oh, and why is it you can't convince any professional physicists that your crackpot conjectures are correct? Are you right and every professional physicist in the business is wrong? Are you smarter that every single person on Earth educated and working in the field? Are you just so incapable of communicating effectively that you haven't been able to explain it in a way that any professional physicist in the world can understand? Or are you just plain wrong?

I think we already know the answer to that one, now don't we, Michael? :D
 
You and RC are suffering from the same illusion, namely that all plasma is full ionized, and that plasma cannot and will not create "filaments" depending on the amount of current flow involved. This is a key problem for you people. The fact that plasma is a conductor does not prevent it from forming "Birkeland currents" to handle the bulk of the particle flow. You both need to sit down and actually read Cosmic Plasma. Alfven explained all of this stuff exceedingly clearly.

The degree of ionization doesn't change the fact that it's a conductor as long as it's a plasma. Yes, it can further ionize. But that's a continuous variation, not an abrupt phase transition like dielectric breakdown. That's a fundamental difference which you haven't come to grips with.
 
It means it shows up in *CONTROLLED* conditions, unlike all your make believe buddies.
No, it doesn't. Something is empirical if it comes from experiment/observation (for those that like to differentiate between the two) rather than something derived from theory.
And by the way, "Controlled" (pointless capitalisation and asterix enhancement optional) experiments are something else you do not understand. Should we bring that debacle up again to.

Er, what was that? You simply went into pure denial. Where's your demonstration that "magnetic reconnection" causes plasma to reach millions of degrees? 1 for 1 on the denial scale for you.
Well yes, if I denying the existence of Tokamaks in the Sun makes me "in denial" then I'm more than happy to be in denial.

Huh? The fact that I can't be bothered to read a whole article in the hope of finding something you say is there when you have a notorious history of putting forward papers that you say support your view when they do no such thing makes me in denial? I think we'll have to add "in denial" to the list of words and phrases you like to use but do not understand the meaning of.

Three for three! You're on a roll.
Err Michael. The lab really isn't the Sun.

More pure denial on your part. Wow. FYI we use electricity to make x-rays in almost every xray machine on the planet. It has nothing to do with that single image.
Why show us the image then?
By the way, what is impure denial?

You evidently went five for five on the pure denial scale. Congrats.
Well if everything I say makes me in denial, even when some are things that are so blatantly obviously true (the Sun not containing a TOKAMAK, the Sun not being the lab) then I guess I'm in denial.

Dude, you're MR theory is toast.
Its not my theory.

We can demonstrate at least 5 key observations of solar atmospheric activity with "electrical discharges".
Your five points all failed. So much so, in fact, that when I pointed your failures out to you you had to go on a rant about me being in denial because I dared to suggest there wasn't a TOKAMAK in the Sun and the Sun wasn't the lab.

There's absolutely no need whatsoever to introduce "magnetic reconnection" to explain any of these key observations. You're simply ignoring the one "natural" source of gamma rays, x-rays and hot plasma in the universe
What???

in favor of something you can't even physically describe in a way that demonstrates it's anything other than ordinary electrical interactions in plasma, and induction.
Others have given you detailed explanations. If you can't understand them that's entirely your problem.

This cumulative denial thing is getting old and boring.
Your ability to pick words and phrases and repeat them time and time again despite not knowing what they mean is getting very very old. It is, however, highly amusing.
 
Hey, Michael, you missed this posting. It's got a couple of questions you're ignoring.

The only thing I'm ignoring is your hard core denial song and dance routine. What is a "macroscopic circuit" and how does it fundamentally differ from a "discharge" through plasma?

It also shows out how you've been dishonest by pointing to sources that don't even remotely support your claims.

The only person being truly "dishonest" (rather than say stubborn) in this whole thread is you. You're a troll. You not just your average troll, you're a "personal attack troll". You can't even have a conversation with someone else about Birkeland without posting "Michael Michael Michael" and the obligatory "crackpot' in there somewhere. You haven't even remotely attempted to be the least bit honest, rational or scientific in our discussions. "Flying stuff? What flying stuff". You're completely without honor.

Oh, and it seems you're still lying about your claim that the "circuit/resistor" approach quite nicely explains heating a coronal loop to millions of degrees.

You're only lying to yourself dude, and nobody going to buy it, certainly not me. I provided you with physical experiments from Los Alamos demonstrating that "electrical discharges" can and do produce million degree plasma. You're lying to yourself if you believe that "truth" rises on falls on the personal math skills of "Michael Michael Michael", and I simply won't play into your fantasy. Get over it. Deal with it. Deal with those million degree temps in a lab in an intellectually honest manner.

Oh, and why is it you can't convince any professional physicists that your crackpot conjectures are correct?

And there's the obligatory "crackpot" BS that can be found in virtually every single one of your posts to me. I really pity you. I don't know who taught you how to communicate but they did you and everyone around you a huge disservice.

Just out of morbid curiosity are you perpetually unemployed, or at the top of some mini tyrant food chain somewhere?
 
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No, it doesn't. Something is empirical if it comes from experiment/observation

Los Alamos observes million degree temperatures. Did you? What was the "cause" of those million degree temperatures in the article I cited?

I'm not even going to go through the whole thing till you answer this question.
 
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Los Alamos observe million degree temperatures. Did you? What was the "cause" of those million degree temperatures?
No, did you?

I'm not even going to go through the whole thing till you answer this question.

Well I'm not going to answer any of your questions until you admit you've been repeatedly using the word "empirical" without knowing what it means.
 
No, did you?



Well I'm not going to answer any of your questions until you admit you've been repeatedly using the word "empirical" without knowing what it means.

You have no idea what empirical means because you can't get any of your friends to comply with the rules of empirical physics. All your beliefs are based upon "math" and only "math", and they are completely and utterly devoid of empirical physical support in a lab.

Los Alamos used a "discharge" process to generate million degree plasmas. They demonstrated an empirical "cause/effect' relationship between "current flow" and "million degree plasmas".

There is no empirically demonstrated cause/effect relationship between million degree plasmas and "magnetic reconnection".

In terms of "empirical physics" (stuff that actually occurs in controlled experiments) it's 1 to nothing in favor of "electrical discharges".
 
No, did you?



Well I'm not going to answer any of your questions until you admit you've been repeatedly using the word "empirical" without knowing what it means.

Notice how you simply sidestepped the "cause/effect" question entirely? Was that really an intellectually honest way to address my point? Honestly T, you're not a GM or an RC, and I respect you. I simply can't believe you're going to try to ignore the concept of cause/effect and the importance of real empirical physical demonstrations of concept.
 
Cosmic Plasma citation: twisted magnetic rope = discharge filament

That is complete BS. The twisting action and field arrangements of the magnetic rope creates a low pressure (insulated) region around the rope and the rope itself can and will certainly act as a discharge filament. It all depend on the amount of current flow and the mechanics of the flow.

Did you people even read Cosmic Plasma? Holy cow. This is absurd.
That is complete BS.
The twisting action and field arrangements of the magnetic rope creates a low pressure (conducting) region around the rope. A low pressure plasma conducts. This does not create a discharge filament. As a start one "discharge filament" does not mean that there will be an electrical discharge - you need another one to provide the potential difference. The ignorance in what you say is that it does not matter what the magnetic rope does. A plasma is a conducting medium. There can be no electrical discharge (thanks brantc for the link) between an potential difference without the dielectric breakdown of an insulating medium.

But I may be wrong:
First asked 4 February 2010
What are the page numbers from Cosmic Plasma where Alfven states that magnetic ropes form a discharge filament and that there is an actual electrical discharge somewhere?

P.S.
First asked 2 February 2010

Michael Mozina,
  • Where does Alfven state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?
  • Where does Perratt state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?
As far as I am aware all that Alfven says is that solar flares can be modeled as if they were electrical circuits. I do not know what Perratt has stated.FYI: If you are thinking of double layers then you are wrong. Double layers are not electrical discharges.
 
Please demonstrate where "magnetic reconnection" has been empirically linked here on Earth to any of the following solar processes:

A) The temperatures associated with these events.
B) The speed of propagation of the event which Bruce demonstrated in the 50's.
C) The "looping nature" of the discharges themselves as Birkeland actually *predicted* (real empirical predictions too, not your fudge factor, after the fact stuff) over 100 years ago.
D) produce x-rays galore
E) produce gamma rays "naturally" in our own atmosphere.
 

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