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Magnetic reconnection and physical processes

Yes, thats pretty much what I mean. I can kinda grasp the math. I work with a couple math majors, one from MIT, that I talk to about this stuff.

If you think about electrons flowing along a parallel field, then you can see that they have a gyromotion, which actually makes it so there is no curl component because they are not flowing straight like in a wire. As the current become denser that gyromotion becomes more of parallel flow leading to curl and that breaks the force free condition(becomes pinch like).

I have no idea what you mean here with curl, do you mean the mathematical operator or do you mean that the field lines are twisted like in a rope?

An electron current flowing along a field line (and having a perpendicular component because the gyrate, I cannot see that they have a gyromotion, it could well be electrons with only parallel velocity), and the gyromotion makes "that there is no curl?" Curl of WHAT? the current, the magnetic field, the ...

I have not figured out the dynamics on the flux tubes with the field aligned current at the core wrapped with a curl >0 shell like what has been observed on the solar surface and by CLUSTER in the magnetotail.

And again I have no idea what exactly you mean here. Do you mean a flux rope (like the figure MM keeps on presenting)? Or do you mean a plasmoid? Or ... And what do you mean with "wrapped with a curl >0 shell?" Curl of WHAT?
 
Let's go through the list again and compare it to "empirical physics"
You have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what the word empirical means.

http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm
Los Alamos has already demonstrated a clear *PHYSICAL* link between million degree plasmas and electrical discharges. Never happened with "magnetic reconnection".

The physics score is now 1 to nothing in favor of electrical discharges through plasma. MR theory looks weak at best in the first "test".

That is pitiful. The same could be said of Tokamaks. Nobody is claiming that there is any Tokamaks in the sun. So, that's 0-0.

Oh look, Bruce already demonstrated a link between the speed of propagation of these solar events and discharges in the Earth's atmosphere.

http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/era.htm

Unless you have a link demonstrating propagation speed of the events with "magnetic reconnection" in a lab, I'm afraid that 0 for 2 and your pet theory is looking kinda sad and lonely.
Which bit, I have no desire to read through all that.

Oh look, it's been done in a lab with "electrical discharges", and oh ya, "magnetic fields".
The lab is not the Sun.

[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/birkelandyohkohmini.jpg[/qimg]
You don't know the difference between visible and X-rays.

Unless you have a physical demonstration of loops in an atmosphere from "magnetic reconnection", that's 3 to nothing. Typically we'd just call that a strike out for MR whereas the electrical discharges Birkeland photographed 100 years ago speak for themselves.
Actually they speak for the fact that you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. So that's still 0-0.

We almost always produce x-rays with "electricity" here on Earth, and every atmospheric discharge emits them. Got any empirical verification that "magnetic reconnection" emit x-rays?

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=16795

So that's now 5 to nothing in favor of electrical discharges.

Fail. I see you don't know the difference between a conductor and an insulator. That's -1 to you.

In terms of pure empirical physics, you don't have a single leg to stand on, whereas I just provided you with 5 empirical demonstrations of a link between atmospheric electrical discharges and all the events in question.
Last time I looked you were losing -1 to 0.

This denial thing is really off scale, particularly when you consider that papers have linked these same types of solar images with "macroscopic circuits" in the solar atmosphere.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813
I'm not the one equating highly conductive plasmas with the Earth's atmosphere.

IMO this is ignorance on a stick. I just provided you with a whole list of at least 5 very key observations that can directly be traced to "discharges" in the Earth's atmosphere, that also can be observed on Earth in labs and in solar activities. This is not a "coincidence".
I have seen nothing to support your ramblings.

It's your side that has produce squat in terms of empirical support.
You have demonstrated time after time after time that you do not have the slightest grip on what the word empirical means.

Even the "experiments" you cite to support "magnetic reconnection" require "current filaments" to make them work. Turn off the circuit and the show is over. Honestly, your whole argument reeks to high heaven and it's completely and utterly unnecessary. It doesn't even come close to surviving and Occum's razor argument. Give it up. It's at least 5 to zip in favor of electrical discharge theory.
Occam's razor is one of those other terms you have demonstrated repeatedly you don't understand.
 
Give it up. It's at least 5 to zip in favor of electrical discharge theory.


And again, why is it that no professional physicist on the face of this planet agrees with you? Are you simply wrong? Or is it that, in all your years of trying, you have proven so wholly incapable of communicating effectively that you've been unable to get a single competent physicist to join you in your quest to overturn the entire science of physics?
 
I have no idea what you mean here with curl, do you mean the mathematical operator or do you mean that the field lines are twisted like in a rope?

An electron current flowing along a field line (and having a perpendicular component because the gyrate, I cannot see that they have a gyromotion, it could well be electrons with only parallel velocity), and the gyromotion makes "that there is no curl?" Curl of WHAT? the current, the magnetic field, the ...



And again I have no idea what exactly you mean here. Do you mean a flux rope (like the figure MM keeps on presenting)? Or do you mean a plasmoid? Or ... And what do you mean with "wrapped with a curl >0 shell?" Curl of WHAT?

Again.. I will interject here for the laymen among us.

Curl is a mathematical operator.

It has something to do with partial derivatives. Which is something to do with differentiation (or calculus if you prefer a broader term). You wont learn about curl (here in the UK) until maybe your first or second year at university (so that would be maybe aged 19-21).

This is quite an important point to labour here... if someone doesnt understand what curl or partial differentiation is then they have very little hope of understanding plasma physics, its predications and results.

An important point to make.

Hand waving arguments, back of the envelope calculations and non-calculus type calculations wont get you very far past this 'barrier'.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)
 
This is quite an important point to labour here... if someone doesnt understand what curl or partial differentiation is then they have very little hope of understanding plasma physics, its predications and results.

An important point to make.

Hand waving arguments, back of the envelope calculations and non-calculus type calculations wont get you very far past this 'barrier'.


For purposes of this discussion that barrier could well be described as insurmountable. The chance that the consensus position on magnetic reconnection will be overturned in this thread verges on the impossible, given the opponents are brantc, who describes his qualifications like this...

Lets just fix this right now. I have no sources for anything I say.


... and Michael Mozina, who simply can't do math and hasn't offered a single quantitative description of anything he's ever claimed in six-plus years on the Internet promoting EU/PC and that crackpot solid surfaced Sun conjecture of his.
 
For purposes of this discussion that barrier could well be described as insurmountable. The chance that the consensus position on magnetic reconnection will be overturned in this thread verges on the impossible, given the opponents are brantc, who describes his qualifications like this...
Originally Posted by brantc
Lets just fix this right now. I have no sources for anything I say.


Give it up. Go home.:rolleyes:
 
Give it up. Go home.:rolleyes:


Because you're just about to actually demonstrate that there's something remotely legitimate or scientific about what so far has proven to be a completely unsupportable conjecture?
:dl:

Don't you find it interesting that you and Michael get all bent out of shape when someone criticizes you for being wholly unable to support your crackpot notions, and you'll spend all that time pissing and moaning about being criticized, and yet are unable to spend the time necessary to learn the real physics that would show you how wrong you are?

Michael insists on staying ignorant, but maybe you'll give this one a shot, brantc. Why is it that not one single professional physicist on the face of the Earth agrees with you? Could it be because you're wrong? Or are you simply incapable of communicating your position in a way that is understandable to people who are actually educated and work in the field of physics?
 
And again, why is it that no professional physicist on the face of this planet agrees with you?

You're in pure denial.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813

These guys don't count as favoring a "circuit/discharge" orientation? I'm sure you have a juicy rationalization in there somewhere. Let's hear it.

Alfven was a professional physicist and he agreed with me. Perratt his former student agrees these are discharge processes too. You're just blowing smoke and lying through your denial stained teeth. Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
Your understanding of both or either math and physics is insufficient. The reality, whether you particularly like it or not, is that mathematics and physics are inseparable. If you can't do one, you can't do the other. The fact is that you do not understand the physics, and because you don't understand the physics you don't know what math needs to be done. So, to hide your own inadequacy, you claim the "moral high ground" by refusing to, as you put it, bark math on command. But the trick fools nobody but yourself.

The point is that physics is a whole, unified intellectual field. You don't get to throw out and ignore the parts you don't like, but you do that constantly, and it is an intellectually fatal error. You point out that electrical discharges are responsible for gamma ray emission from Earth, and that is correct. Then you assume that the same process must be true for the sun, ignoring the simple fact that the sun and Earth are remarkably different places. You show no indication at all of any willingness to even think for a minute about the physics involved. No, you take a hard line and demand that the physical universe bow to your preconception, and in order to do that you simply ignore any law of physics that gets in your way. You demand "circuit reconnection", without ever explaining in any detail what it is supposed to be, and ignoring the fact that simple circuit reconnection violates the law of conservation of energy. You demand that the sun have some kind of iron "crust", ignoring the laws of thermodynamics that make it impossible. You say ... "particularly empirical physics is king" ... but you do not know what the word "empirical" means; you re-define the word to suit your tastes, declaring whole fields of science like astronomy to be no longer science.

The things you are doing are not intellectually defensible. That's why it's you against the world and will always be you against the world. For whatever reason you have no concept of how science should actually be done, and not the slightest will to learn. There is no use at all in talking to you, you will never learn, and are not intellectually capable of learning. The only reason I bother with you at all is a hope of protecting non-scientists, who would not be expected to see how weak your arguments really are. I don't want to see the garbage you pass around to get in the way of real learning on the part of people who really want to learn.



Of course we can, and we already have. But you don't care and don't want to know, so you simply pretend it has not happened.


You could readily answer the question yourself, if you really cared about the answer, by reading a book. I posted this on January 20 but you have yet to respond. Have you read any of these books? have you even looked at any of them? Can you point out specific errors in the physics contained therein? If you are not interested in even opening a book, why should anyone think that you care at all about the truth? These are the sources you could consult, if you cared to, and find the answers to your questions about physical uniqueness of magnetic reconnection and the difference between it and induction.



Well, what's the answer? Have you ever had a class in plasma physics or a related topic? Have you any experience working in a plasma physics laboratory? Do you have any real experience of your own to call on?

You ask what is "physically unique" about magnetic reconnection. You ask for an "empirical demonstration" of magnetic reconnection. You claim that no one has even tried to answer. You know that all of those questions have been answered, but you don't care.




You have been directed to books which cover the physics of magnetic reconnection and include discussions of controlled laboratory experiments which fully demonstrate the physical reality and the unique physical properties of magnetic reconnection as opposed to induction (e.g., Magnetic Reconnection Redux VII & Magnetic Reconnection Redux V). You have even been directed to papers which describe the experiments, and even directed to the experiments themselves. If you actually cared about the truth you would pursue these leads and either demonstrate their specific failures, or admit there is more to magnetic reconnection than you thought. But in fact you simply ignore all of it, and with ruthless intellectual dishonesty you even dare to claim that no one has even bothered to answer you.

Magnetic reconnection is a real physical process that is unique & demonstrable in a laboratory setting, as well as in observations of nature in situ (all of which you wrongly reject as not "empirical"). All of this has been demonstrated already in this thread, more than once. You either claim falsely that no such thing has been done, or simply reject everything without reason or thought. You have nothing at all to justify any argument you make. This thread is now dead, condemned to an eternity of you whining that people don't do what they actually do, you constantly repeating the same nonsensical claims, you constantly proclaiming your profound ignorance of science in general & physics in particular, for all the world to see. Be my guest. Show off as much as you want, it's good for the occasional laugh, but will produce nothing of intellectual value from you.

NOMINATED!





OBTW, could you, tusenfem, or others direct me to some graphic (pictorial) representations of magnetotails/earth-sun interactions, &etc. so I can understand the pieces and parts (current sheets, transverse flows, sunrise/set phenomena, &etc.) Thanks in advance.:)

Cheers,

Dave
 
OBTW, could you, tusenfem, or others direct me to some graphic (pictorial) representations of magnetotails/earth-sun interactions, &etc. so I can understand the pieces and parts (current sheets, transverse flows, sunrise/set phenomena, &etc.) Thanks in advance.:)

You can find all the info you need in Introduction to Space Physics by Kivelson and Russell, one of the best introductory books on these topics (you might even find it as a torrent download I have been informed).

For sunrise/sunset phenomena you will have to go to the beach and look for yourself.
 
Alfven and Perratt have stated that "these activities" = electrical discharges

Alfven was a professional physicist and he agreed with me. Perratt his former student agrees these are discharge processes too. You're just blowing smoke and lying through your denial stained teeth. Wake up and smell the coffee.
That is your usual unsupported assertions.
IMO You are trying to make make Alfven and Perratt look so ignorant that they would state that solar activities like coronal loops ("these activities"?) are electrical discharges. No competent plasma physicist would say that.

First asked 2 February 2010

Michael Mozina,
  • Where does Alfven state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?
  • Where does Perratt state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?
As far as I am aware all that Alfven says is that solar flares can be modeled as if they were electrical circuits. I do not know what Perratt has stated.FYI: If you are thinking of double layers then you are wrong. Double layers are not electrical discharges.
 
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You're in pure denial.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813

These guys don't count as favoring a "circuit/discharge" orientation? I'm sure you have a juicy rationalization in there somewhere. Let's hear it.


Neither Mann nor Onel appear to claim that coronal loops or solar flares are electrical discharges. As usual, you seem to believe anyone who uses the words "solar" and "electric*" in the same paragraph support your crackpot conjecture. And as usual, on that point, you are wrong.

Alfven was a professional physicist and he agreed with me. Perratt his former student agrees these are discharge processes too.


Maybe we can get a better idea of their actual agreement with you when you answer Reality Check's questions below...

  • Where does Alfven state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?
  • Where does Perratt state that coronal loops or solar flares are actual electrical discharges?


And although your incessant tantrums are boringly predictable, they do lend an awful lot of entertainment value to these threads. Imagine the example you're setting for the newbies and lurkers when instead of actually addressing straight forward relevant concerns, you stomp your feet and cry like a little kid. :p

You're just blowing smoke and lying through your denial stained teeth. Wake up and smell the coffee.

:dl:
 
Originally Posted by brantc
Yes, thats pretty much what I mean. I can kinda grasp the math. I work with a couple math majors, one from MIT, that I talk to about this stuff.

If you think about electrons flowing along a parallel field, then you can see that they have a gyromotion, which actually makes it so there is no curl component because they are not flowing straight like in a wire. As the current become denser that gyromotion becomes more of parallel flow leading to curl and that breaks the force free condition(becomes pinch like).
I have no idea what you mean here with curl, do you mean the mathematical operator or do you mean that the field lines are twisted like in a rope?

An electron current flowing along a field line (and having a perpendicular component because the gyrate, I cannot see that they have a gyromotion, it could well be electrons with only parallel velocity), and the gyromotion makes "that there is no curl?" Curl of WHAT? the current, the magnetic field, the ...

Curl, twist and helicity are all having to do with rotation.
Gyromotion is the particle rotating about the axis, and curl is the magnetic field rotating about the axis. If there are electrons with a parallel velocity I would expect a curl component.

Curl is the mathematical description of the rotation of the magnetic field using vectors.
It is the vector rotation of the magnetic field, following the right hand rule, that causes the helicity(twist) of flux tubes.

Originally Posted by brantc
I have not figured out the dynamics on the flux tubes with the field aligned current at the core wrapped with a curl >0 shell like what has been observed on the solar surface and by CLUSTER in the magnetotail.

And again I have no idea what exactly you mean here. Do you mean a flux rope (like the figure MM keeps on presenting)? Or do you mean a plasmoid? Or ... And what do you mean with "wrapped with a curl >0 shell?" Curl of WHAT?[/QUOTE]

CLUSTER has observed a plasma filled flux tube rope that has a inner core that has field aligned currents with an outer sheath that has a curl component. The outer sheath has a helical twist to it where as the inner core has no twist. This has been anecdotally(visually but no instrument stuck into the flux tube) observed on the solar surface as well..


So my question to those that want to weigh in on this:

Does reconnection only happen in flux ropes?

If not what is the configuration that you think is required?

Is reconnection a pinch like process?

Are there electric fields involved in the particle acceleration?
 
Electrical Discharges.

An electrical discharge results from the creation of a conducting path between two points of different electrical potential in the medium in which the points are immersed. If the supply of electrical charge is continuous, the discharge is permanent, but otherwise it is temporary, and serves to equalize the potentials. Usually, the medium is a gas, often the atmosphere, and the potential difference is a large one, from a few hundred volts to millions of volts. If the two points are separated by a vacuum, there can be no discharge. The transfer of matter between the two points is necessary, since only matter can carry electric charge. This matter is usually electrons, each carrying a charge of 4.803 x 10-10 esu. Electrons are very light, 9.109 x 10-28 g, and so can be moved with little effort. However, ions can also carry charge, although they are more than 1836 times heavier, and sometimes are important carriers. Where both electrons and ions are available, however, the electrons carry the majority of the current. Ions can be positively or negatively charged, usually positively, and carry small multiples of the electronic charge.

Electrical discharges have been studied since the middle of the 19th century, when vacuum pumps and sources of current electricity became available. These laboratory discharges in partially-evacuated tubes are very familiar, but there are also electrical discharges in nature, lightning being the primary example. There are also the aurora borealis and australis, St. Elmo's Fire, sparks from walking on a rug in dry weather and rubbing cats, crackling sounds when clothes fresh from the dryer are separated, and similar phenomena, many resulting from the high potentials of static electricity. Technology offers a wealth of examples, such as arc welding, the corona discharge on high-tension lines, fluorescent lamps, including their automatic starters, neon advertising signs, neon and argon glow lamps, mercury and sodium lamps, mercury-arc lamps for illumination and UV, carbon arc lights, vacuum tubes, including gas-filled rectifiers, Nixie numerical indicators and similar devices. Some of these are historical, but all are interesting and often fascinating to watch.

A good reason for this article is also that information on electrical discharges is not easy to find in current literature, in spite of their importance in many fields of physics, astrophysics, atmospheric electricity and engineering. The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Physics has no entry for "electrical discharge" or "electric arc," for example. The closest one can come are articles on plasma physics, which do not do the job. Plasma physics, as it is generally presented, is a rather limited field mainly concerned with the luckless search for thermonuclear power. Every day we see many examples of discharges--street lights, neon signs, fluorescent lamps--so how they work must be valuable knowledge.
http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/dischg.htm

It is not necessary to quote or reference somebody to understand the ubiquity of electrical discharges. This should be basic physics.
Its not hard to make the connection between the phenomena on the sun and electric currents.
The instrumental observations are sufficient.
 
An electrical discharge results from the creation of a conducting path between two points of different electrical potential in the medium in which the points are immersed
It is not necessary to quote or reference somebody to understand the ubiquity of electrical discharges. This should be basic physics.

And yet, you keep failing to understand it. That "creation of a conducting path" means dielectric breakdown of an insulating medium. But plasma isn't insulating, it's conducting. There's no creation of a conducting path, because the path is already conducting. Why do so many electric universe folks fail to understand that plasma is a conductor?
 
brantc (and Michael Mozina),
This is fairly obvious so I assume that you know this but...
The fact that insulators and condctors act differently is why Birkeland's experiments are both correct and incorrect. His experiments involve the breakdown of an insulating material (gas) creating electrical discharges.

That makes his experiments applicable to situations where there is an insulator to breakdown, e.g. planetary atmospheres. In those situations his experiments are correctly applied.

That also makes his experiments inapplicable to situations where there is no insulator to breakdown, e.g. solar atmospheres. In those situations his experiments cannot be applied for the simple reason that electrical discharges cannot exist in a conducting medium like a plasma.
 
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You can find all the info you need in Introduction to Space Physics by Kivelson and Russell, one of the best introductory books on these topics
Nice looking book, but out of my depth. What I hoped for was more of a (relatively) simple diagram with the various regions you guys have have mentioned labeled so I could get a rudimentary idea of the parts you were talking about.:)

(you might even find it as a torrent download I have been informed).
Any suggestions about where to find that?

For sunrise/sunset phenomena you will have to go to the beach and look for yourself.
I may have used the wrong terms. I thought someone had said something about different phenomena occurring on the two sides, I apologize for not remembering correctly.:o

Again, I am just wanting to understand a little more about this subject.

Cheers,

Dave
 
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