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Flight 93

"wheel-cover" = jet engine, "horse-trailer" = fuselage

Well posters, we're approaching # 675 and still NO discussion of FBI accountability.
You sound like a Tim McVeigh blaming the government, the FBI for your failure to understand 911. Do you own a PA-28?

Your post means you are approaching 500 googled delusions with your only ability to see wheel covers where there are Jet engines, and horse-trailers for fuselage parts.

I call that failure for 500 plus posts as you make insane claims based on ignorance reflected in your jet engine identification as a "wheel-cover".
 
The distance, between the windows shown on the 757 (assuming it is a 757) above in post 649, is approximately the height of each window. On the debris shown in post 620, the distance between the windows is approximately 2/3rds the height. Anybody know why this should be? Is the distance between windows standard on all 757's or does it vary with model?


Front of the aircraft is typically first class, More legroom, Thus, windows spacing is wider. look to the coach section of the fuselage. Note the registration shown in this photo. N591UA, that's the actual aircraft that crashed near Shankville. Lets compare apples to apples. ok?

flight93windows.jpg
 
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Greetings AW,

Thank you for your post # 680. While I certainly do not wish to be seen as either "running" this thread, let alone acting as "boss" of this board, I will, nonetheless, say you guys are a real study in brinksmanship in your responses to my requested deadlines. My last one was #675; and, until AW's post at #680, no one had posted up anything meaningful on the FBI's accountability for what looks like the intentional botching of the Flight 93 investigation.

To be sure, AW does not take into consideration what the FBI did at Shanksville and AW posts up FBI website excerpts that deal more with the Pentagon than with Shanksville and which in no way address the way the Shanksville investigation was handled, AW has still contributed helpful background information. For instance, AW offers up an FBI letter that suggests the reason they screwed up is that they didn't have enough personnel to go around.

I don't know how that EXCUSE really fits in with the remainder of what we're told about what went on at Shanksville. If others of you are now willing to build upon the foundation AW has created here, it might be good to recall that the tone and the tenor of prior statements made about the FBI interaction with locals at Shanksville was to the effect the locals were cast aside.

The FBI letter and data that AW quotes suggest the FBI sought to enlist locals because FBI personnel was spread too thin.

I am here paraphrasing, as this FBI EXCUSE information is new to the thread and adds a different dynamic, I think. True, the AW information does not contribute much to accountability, but it does add to the EXCUSE base. I can understand that those who are dedicated to holding onto the common myth for emotional reasons, no matter what, would more naturally incline towards making EXCUSES for the FBI rather than seeking accountability.

Fact remains, however, the FBI put the Shanksville investigation into a position where the common myth cannot be proven as the investigation there was annhiliated by the FBI.
 
Greetings AW,

Thank you for your post # 680. While I certainly do not wish to be seen as either "running" this thread, let alone acting as "boss" of this board, I will, nonetheless, say you guys are a real study in brinksmanship in your responses to my requested deadlines. My last one was #675; and, until AW's post at #680, no one had posted up anything meaningful on the FBI's accountability for what looks like the intentional botching of the Flight 93 investigation.

How did body parts from all the people that boarded Flight 93 (as shown on the manifest) in Newark get to Shanksville, 120 minutes later (as identified by DNA)?
 
No one cares about your deadlines or your opinions...
 
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Greetings AW,

Thank you for your post # 680. While I certainly do not wish to be seen as either "running" this thread, let alone acting as "boss" of this board, I will, nonetheless, say you guys are a real study in brinksmanship in your responses to my requested deadlines. My last one was #675; and, until AW's post at #680, no one had posted up anything meaningful on the FBI's accountability for what looks like the intentional botching of the Flight 93 investigation.

To be sure, AW does not take into consideration what the FBI did at Shanksville and AW posts up FBI website excerpts that deal more with the Pentagon than with Shanksville and which in no way address the way the Shanksville investigation was handled, AW has still contributed helpful background information. For instance, AW offers up an FBI letter that suggests the reason they screwed up is that they didn't have enough personnel to go around.

I don't know how that EXCUSE really fits in with the remainder of what we're told about what went on at Shanksville. If others of you are now willing to build upon the foundation AW has created here, it might be good to recall that the tone and the tenor of prior statements made about the FBI interaction with locals at Shanksville was to the effect the locals were cast aside.

The FBI letter and data that AW quotes suggest the FBI sought to enlist locals because FBI personnel was spread too thin.

I am here paraphrasing, as this FBI EXCUSE information is new to the thread and adds a different dynamic, I think. True, the AW information does not contribute much to accountability, but it does add to the EXCUSE base. I can understand that those who are dedicated to holding onto the common myth for emotional reasons, no matter what, would more naturally incline towards making EXCUSES for the FBI rather than seeking accountability.

Fact remains, however, the FBI put the Shanksville investigation into a position where the common myth cannot be proven as the investigation there was annhiliated by the FBI.

What are the odds that this thread is closed or Jam is banned before he answers one question or calls that coroner or calls the FBI or calls anyone. Baiting for 680+ posts. Classic stuff.

I call time out for this spam monster.
 
How did body parts from all the people that boarded Flight 93 (as shown on the manifest) in Newark get to Shanksville, 120 minutes later (as identified by DNA)?

Big Al,

To make the DNA approach meaningful, I think you're going to have to lay a proper foundation by showing and sourcing what you claim the DNA information is. In addition, I will not agree to your claim concerning the manifest. There is no validated passenger manifest. We dealt with this way back, I think in the pg. 2 to 4 range in this thread. What was posted up was a photocopy of a photocopy dated 10/4/02, that did not show from whom it came or to whom it was sent. It is not, therefore, a manifest that can satisfy a reliability standard.

That is the problem in 9/11 world. Each piece of phony information is coupled with something else in order to buttress what hasn't been established in the first place by way of reliable evidence. I have said this. I have also given you what I think is the first concrete example of this process of buttressing unproven assumptions in the context of 9/11. The example I gave as being the start of the buttressing of assumption process was the female voice narrator (never identified, as far as I know) who said on teevee

...there's another one... in reference to the explosion and image of that shadow thingy at WTC 2 where the narrator was implying that a jetliner had already hit WTC 1; hence "another one" at WTC 2. That kind of assumption riddled thinking is endemic to 9/11 and you just tried to do the same darn thing.

Now, big al, in all sincerity, if you want to post up your DNA evidence, specific to FL 93 then, by all means, do so and give it your best shot. I am not about to refute what you haven't demonstrated in the first place, thus allowing you to just continue the same 9/11 process that has prevented us from knowing what happened all along; namely, the process of posting up one assumption after, you guessed it, ...another one... Not this time, Big Al.

Now show us what you got in connection with FL 93 DNA evidence, including sources, links and excerpts. And, don't spam us with some long list of links, some of which work and some of which don't. Show us what you got using your best and most concise data and sources for it.
 
... Fact remains, however, the FBI put the Shanksville investigation into a position where the common myth cannot be proven as the investigation there was annhiliated by the FBI.
A delusion you have to apologize for your buddy terrorists, who are dead, identified from remains in the crater; are you going to get the remains? They are the terrorists you are saying did not kill anyone, are you going to claim your friends remains, they have your buddies remains, who flew 93 into the ground killing the Passengers; go get em.


wheel covers are engines in your fantasy world with horse-trailers that fly and carry jet fuel that does not burn... lol, you have the beam weapon too, can't make up bigger lies and delusions but it looks like you will try after you reset the needle..
 
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Now show us what you got in connection with FL 93 DNA evidence, including sources, links and excerpts. And, don't spam us with some long list of links, some of which work and some of which don't. Show us what you got using your best and most concise data and sources for it.

You claimed the evidence is phony. What is your basis for this claim?

Is all evidence phony, or only evidence that doesn't contradict what you want to believe?
 
Greetings AW,

Thank you for your post # 680. While I certainly do not wish to be seen as either "running" this thread, let alone acting as "boss" of this board, I will, nonetheless, say you guys are a real study in brinksmanship in your responses to my requested deadlines. My last one was #675; and, until AW's post at #680, no one had posted up anything meaningful on the FBI's accountability for what looks like the intentional botching of the Flight 93 investigation.

To be sure, AW does not take into consideration what the FBI did at Shanksville and AW posts up FBI website excerpts that deal more with the Pentagon than with Shanksville and which in no way address the way the Shanksville investigation was handled, AW has still contributed helpful background information. For instance, AW offers up an FBI letter that suggests the reason they screwed up is that they didn't have enough personnel to go around.

I don't know how that EXCUSE really fits in with the remainder of what we're told about what went on at Shanksville. If others of you are now willing to build upon the foundation AW has created here, it might be good to recall that the tone and the tenor of prior statements made about the FBI interaction with locals at Shanksville was to the effect the locals were cast aside.

The FBI letter and data that AW quotes suggest the FBI sought to enlist locals because FBI personnel was spread too thin.

I am here paraphrasing, as this FBI EXCUSE information is new to the thread and adds a different dynamic, I think. True, the AW information does not contribute much to accountability, but it does add to the EXCUSE base. I can understand that those who are dedicated to holding onto the common myth for emotional reasons, no matter what, would more naturally incline towards making EXCUSES for the FBI rather than seeking accountability.

Fact remains, however, the FBI put the Shanksville investigation into a position where the common myth cannot be proven as the investigation there was annhiliated by the FBI.


Did you just only read the first paragraph and only look at the pictures? Can you point out an "Excuse"? You jump to the conclusion that simply because this was the largest FBI investigation ever, that it was incomplete and mishandled. Do you know what logical fallacy you are committing?
September 11
Despite the number of terrorism-related investigations the FBI had conducted previously, nothing could have prepared the Bureau, and, in fact, the world, for what occurred on September 11, 2001. Up until then, the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 had been the largest and most complex investigation the FBI had ever conducted. All of that changed in the blink of an eye, when two airliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers in New York, another flew into the Pentagon, and a fourth crashed in a field in rural Pennsylvania. The ensuing response and investigation used more FBI resources than any other investigation before or since. Employees from across the globe—at FBI Headquarters, field offices, and legal attachés; both special agents and support staff—worked wherever they were needed. They joined personnel from other government agencies, employees from private industry and nonprofit organizations, and members of the public. From evidence response and recovery to the creation of demonstrative evidence for courtroom testimony, work on the FBI’s biggest case in history continues to this day.
The Laboratory’s Explosives Unit coordinated the identification, collection, and examination of the massive amounts of evidence at the three crime scenes. Personnel from the Bomb Data Center, which is now part of the FBI’s Critical Incident Response Group (CIRG), coordinated the response of Special Agent Bomb Technicians from FBI field offices, who cleared each scene for potential explosive devices and supported the Evidence Response Teams. The Crisis Response Unit, also now a part of CIRG, ensured constant, secure communication between the crime scenes and FBI Headquarters. Personnel from the Technical Programs Section (now assigned to the Operational Technology Division) restored radio communications at the FBI’s New York Field Office and deployed to the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites with emergency communications equipment (FBI Laboratory 2002).3
The Hazardous Materials Response Unit (HMRU) assessed the hazards—including jet fuel, bloodborne pathogens, sewage, structural and confined-space issues, and electrical and explosive environments—present at the crash sites. Working with local emergency medical personnel, the HMRU ensured the health and safety of personnel working at the scenes.


The Laboratory’s Evidence Response Team Unit coordinated the deployment of the FBI field office Evidence Response Teams and provided the specialized equipment and supplies they needed to recover human remains and collect and preserve physical evidence at the crash sites. The teams also coordinated the search of rubble removed from the crash sites to off-site locations. The mountains of evidence at each site required the coordinated efforts of numerous personnel, including FBI and other federal, state, and local employees who would not normally work such matters. Evidence Response Team personnel provided on-the-spot training to individuals eager to serve. These enhanced teams were able to find many significant items of evidence.


The Disaster Squad deployed to the three crash sites, assisting the New York Police Department’s Missing Persons Unit at the World Trade Center. The Laboratory’s Latent Print Units conducted 126,632 fingerprint comparisons from approximately 3833 pieces of evidence received between November 12, 2001, and January 17, 2002.
From September 12 to November 30, 2001,
the Questioned Documents Unit received more than 1600 pieces of evidence. Fire and moisture had damaged some documents; others were torn. Using specialized techniques, QDU personnel were able to stabilize and reconstruct the documents to extract information of potential value, including indented writing and deciphered numbers.
Personnel from the Laboratory’s DNA Analysis Units supported the identification efforts at all three crash sites. Items recovered from the crash sites and the hotel rooms where the hijackers had stayed allowed DNA examiners to develop DNA profiles for several of the hijackers.
In the first 30 days of the investigation, the Computer Analysis Response Team (now assigned to the FBI’s Operational Technology Division) examined more than 35 terabytes of data. Examinations covered computers and disks used by the subjects, data obtained from Internet Service Providers, and a disk recovered from the Pennsylvania crash site.
Working with the National Transportation Safety Board, personnel from FAVIAU recovered data from the Flight 93 (which crashed in Pennsylvania) cockpit voice recorder,
even though it had been damaged in the crash. With the help of the Federal Aviation Administration, personnel also obtained audio from the air traffic for all four flights. Other audio and video recordings came from the crash sites and FBI field offices. These recordings were restored, duplicated, enhanced, and compared. FAVIAU personnel also videotaped the Pentagon site following the crash.
2007_10_figure13.jpg
Personnel recover the cockpit voice recorder from Flight 93.
The Special Photographic Unit (now POISU) provided photographic support to the investigation. Personnel took aerial photographs of all three crash sites. They also photographed hundreds of items of evidence received in the Laboratory. They photographically enhanced damaged personal identification photographs and obliterated and indented writings recovered from the crash sites. Finally, unit personnel took more than 170,000 photographs, including 5000 photographs of the hijackers and other suspects, making copies and distributing them to investigators, prosecutors, and FBI executives to use for briefings and press conferences and to distribute to the field and the media.
Many cases require models and exhibits to reconstruct the event and present the evidence clearly and cogently in court. After September 11, personnel from the Laboratory’s Investigative and Prosecutive Graphic Unit and the Structural Design Unit (now the Special Projects Unit) completed site surveys of the Pentagon crash site, detailing victim and evidence locations, building damage, and the path of the airliner and its debris (FBI Laboratory 2002). Unit personnel also created hundreds of displays for court. These ranged from simple organizational charts, to scale models of the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, to complex digital displays showing multilayered interactions between individuals and events (FBI Laboratory 2007).
In June 2003, an FBI executive testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that the FBI had collected and submitted for analysis more than 7500 pieces of evidence, helped process more than 2.8 million tons of debris in New York alone, and took more than 45,000 crime scene photographs (Rolince 2003).
 
jam,

greetings again tom,

Well, I do not normally respond to posts that are impolite.

LMAO...

Sure you do. It's your favorite thing in the world... getting people riled up by saying the dirt-dumbest things possible.

Plus, it is unfortunate that your epithet obscures the fact that it is the FBI that has put us in a position where the alleged crash of FL 93 cannot now be proven.

A perfect example.

You say that "the crash of FL 93 cannot now be proven". And you say it with apparent seriousness...

You MIGHT even believe it.

Get help.

I've noted it for my records, too.

I'm sure that DGM is terrified that he now appears "in your records".
Would you put me in there too?

[Usual indecipherable babble snipped]

There are other inferences reasonably drawn from factors 1--5.

"Reasonable"? LoL.

What I can say, instead, is that it is important to seek accountability for what the FBI did in connection with the utter annhiliation of the investigatory process as it relates to alleged FL 93.

Go.
Go forth.
With wings on your feet.

Seek accountability.

Come back & tell us about your Big Adventure.

Pee%20Wee.jpg


Tom
 
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Big Al,

To make the DNA approach meaningful, I think you're going to have to lay a proper foundation by showing and sourcing what you claim the DNA information is. In addition, I will not agree to your claim concerning the manifest. There is no validated passenger manifest. We dealt with this way back, I think in the pg. 2 to 4 range in this thread. What was posted up was a photocopy of a photocopy dated 10/4/02, that did not show from whom it came or to whom it was sent. It is not, therefore, a manifest that can satisfy a reliability standard.

It is unforgiveable that you failed to inform the FBI, the NTSB, NIST, and other investigatory bodies what the proper standards of evidence were. How did you expect them to do it right if you didn't dictate your requirements to them?

Don't you CARE?!?

Apparently not.
 
To help move this thread along to it's logical conclusion, AAH no doubt, I propose that any further responses written to jammonius be given a NSFJ (Not Suitable for Jammonius) tag thusly:

How did body parts from all the people that boarded Flight 93 (as shown on the manifest) in Newark get to Shanksville, 120 minutes later (as identified by DNA)?


This should help speed up the ignore factor.
 
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Big Al,

To make the DNA approach meaningful, I think you're going to have to lay a proper foundation by showing and sourcing what you claim the DNA information is.


I don't have to do squat. I posted information about the DNA analysis in

If you don't accept it, you are accusing more than 100 investigators of committing a federal crime by lying about evience.


In addition, I will not agree to your claim concerning the manifest. There is no validated passenger manifest.

That's your problem.



...there's another one... in reference to the explosion and image of that shadow thingy at WTC 2 where the narrator was implying that a jetliner had already hit WTC 1; hence "another one" at WTC 2. That kind of assumption riddled thinking is endemic to 9/11 and you just tried to do the same darn thing.

Thousands of New Yorkers saw the planes. WHo saw what and who took what pictures and videos is nicely written up in Watching The world change; The Stories behind the images of 9/11 By David Friend

Now, big al, in all sincerity, if you want to post up your DNA evidence, specific to FL 93 then, by all means, do so and give it your best shot.

Done. See link, above.

So explain how the body parts got from Newark to Shanksville in 120 minutes.
 
Did you just only read the first paragraph and only look at the pictures? Can you point out an "Excuse"? You jump to the conclusion that simply because this was the largest FBI investigation ever, that it was incomplete and mishandled. Do you know what logical fallacy you are committing?

AW,

As I told you before, use your own postings to identify fallacies as each time you refer to one you are doing nothing more than foreshadowing that you are using and relying on them.

I am content to have you repost that FBI letter as often as you like. It is chock-full of admissions that the FBI has virtually no evidence that it can point to that comes from Shanksville PA.

I gurantee you, that letter is an admission of irresponsibility on the part of someone claiming to be the FBI for gross mishandling of an investigation at Shanksville.
 
AW,

As I told you before, use your own postings to identify fallacies as each time you refer to one you are doing nothing more than foreshadowing that you are using and relying on them.

I am content to have you repost that FBI letter as often as you like. It is chock-full of admissions that the FBI has virtually no evidence that it can point to that comes from Shanksville PA.

I gurantee you, that letter is an admission of irresponsibility on the part of someone claiming to be the FBI for gross mishandling of an investigation at Shanksville.
Hilight them. point them out in that letter

And while you're at it. propose a method of transporting and seeding body parts and personal effects in Shanksville that departed from Newark 120 minutes earlier.
 
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AW,

As I told you before, use your own postings to identify fallacies as each time you refer to one you are doing nothing more than foreshadowing that you are using and relying on them.

I am content to have you repost that FBI letter as often as you like. It is chock-full of admissions that the FBI has virtually no evidence that it can point to that comes from Shanksville PA.

I gurantee you, that letter is an admission of irresponsibility on the part of someone claiming to be the FBI for gross mishandling of an investigation at Shanksville.

What about your responsibility? You are the universal arbiter of what constitutes valid evidence and logic, and yet you failed to inform the FBI how to do their jobs.

The only possible explanation for this is that you are a sociopath, laughing at all the so-called "professionals" bungling their jobs, instead of using your considerable gifts to benefit society.

Shame on you!
 
AW,

As I told you before, use your own postings to identify fallacies as each time you refer to one you are doing nothing more than foreshadowing that you are using and relying on them.

I am content to have you repost that FBI letter as often as you like. It is chock-full of admissions that the FBI has virtually no evidence that it can point to that comes from Shanksville PA.

I gurantee you, that letter is an admission of irresponsibility on the part of someone claiming to be the FBI for gross mishandling of an investigation at Shanksville.
When will you claim your buddies remains, the four terrorists remains, the ones you say did not kill are waiting to be picked up.

In your delusional world jet engines are wheel covers and you are too chicken to report your "findings" to the FBI or your local police. You have not reported a cover-up, you just post idiotic ideas made up to match your other delusions of horse-trailers flying, jet fuel not burning, and beam weapons dustifying steel.

Will you step up and claim the remains of the terrorists you apologize for?
 
b
So explain how the body parts got from Newark to Shanksville in 120 minutes.

Big Al,

I have started to take a look at that other thread that you want to rely on for DNA proof purposes. You posted that in a thread involving the Pentagon, so I am not going to respond much until you show us what part of what you posted deals with Shanksville DNA.

I see that you've made reference to the AFIP, but you have not provided specific or concise information pertaining to DNA at Shanksville. Furthermore, and to be forthcoming here, big al, I can tell you that in furtherance of what Wallace Miller has said, I am concerned about the initial reports there were no bodies to be seen.

I've already posted at least one quote from Wallace Miller. Here's another:

"Miller was among the very first to arrive after 10:06 on the magnificently sunny morning of September 11. He was stunned at how small the smoking crater looked, he says, "like someone took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped all this trash into it." Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service."

It may be true that he later clarified his statement or said that what he said is not what he said or meant or whatever. It is known, for example, that Miller has met with victims families and has talked about DNA.

In fact, Miller describes the process by which he rationalized the fact he had seen no remains with his conclusion they must be present, nonetheless:

"Immediately after the crash, the seeming absence of human remains led the mind of coroner Wally Miller to a surreal fantasy: that Flight 93 had somehow stopped in mid-flight and discharged all of its passengers before crashing. "There was just nothing visible," he says. "It was the strangest feeling." It would be nearly an hour before Miller came upon his first trace of a body part. The emotionally wrenching impact of what happened to the bodies caused Miller to resolve to seek out and talk personally to every one of the victims' families."


Among the additional anamolies concerning DNA is the place where much of it was said to have been found and when:

"...the shock wave from Flight 93, a few hundred yards away, spewed debris through the woods with such force that it blew out all the windows and doors and shook the foundation on Barry's place. It turned the whole Hoover property into a cemetery where human remains were still being found months later...."

All quotes in this post are sourced here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8

We know full well that people are under pressure to conform to the common myth or else they get called names and lose good jobs and such like, especially if they're in a position like Wallace Miller is.

Do you think the Somerset County PA coroner could openly and definitely be a 9/11 Truther? Maybe you do think that or will say you do, Big Al, but I don't think so. I think a person like that is under extreme pressure to conform.

I do, however, think he was honest in saying he saw no bodies. And, without bodies, it is hard to have reliable DNA samples. You agree?

Now, in any event, please post up your DNA proof, Big Al. Thanks in advance.
 

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