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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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The fact that that evidence remains hidden is fodder for lone-wolf theorists, in my view; it's why we have so much speculation here & elsewhere. I haven't found any of those theories compelling, but I suspect that they will always be with us.

Yes, that is a big problem. But it is not the prosecution's problem, nor the defence's problem. It is our problem.

All we can do is infer and reason from the outside looking in. Expect the defence to publish details but only if they conclude there has been a gross abuse of office either by the prosecution or the judiciary. Not likely.
 
Carlo Torre

Unfortunately for us, I suppose, Frank "Sfarzo" isn't a medical examiner. The experts they did supply couldn't agree on much and wouldn't have dented the convincing evidence of multiple attackers.

Frank Sfarzo was reporting on what Professor Torre said, and I have provided Professor Torre's credentials. Dr. Torre rebutted the "convincing evidence" of multiple attackers by saying that the attack happened too quickly for Meredith to see the knife.

Chris
 
Frank Sfarzo was reporting on what Professor Torre said, and I have provided Professor Torre's credentials. Dr. Torre rebutted the "convincing evidence" of multiple attackers by saying that the attack happened too quickly for Meredith to see the knife.

Chris

How in the world would he know that.
 
Yes, that is a big problem. But it is not the prosecution's problem, nor the defence's problem. It is our problem.

All we can do is infer and reason from the outside looking in. Expect the defence to publish details but only if they conclude there has been a gross abuse of office either by the prosecution or the judiciary. Not likely.

I don't see it as much of a problem at all.

For example, just above, halides1 has provided the identity of someone he thinks holds the key to blowing the whole conspiracy wide open--one of the medical examiners. All conspiracy theories contain identifiable souls such as these. Real conspiracies contain people like this, too, and they are the ones who help reveal the truth about what happened.

Why didn't the defense teams follow up on halides1's allegations and subpoena this fellow? Are they idiots? Lazy? In on it?
 
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I don't see it as much of a problem at all.

For example, just above, halides1 has provided the identity of someone he thinks holds the key to blowing the whole conspiracy wide open--one of the medical examiners. All conspiracy theories contain identifiable souls such as these. Real conspiracies contain people like this, too, and they are the ones who help reveal the truth about what happened.

Why didn't the defense teams follow up on halides1's allegations and subpoena this fellow? Are they idiots? Lazy? In on it?

:eye-poppi All of the above??? :eye-poppi​
 
All the evidence supports the rock being thrown through the window from the outside. The scratch on the shade, the glass on the sill, the glass on the floor in front of the bed, the rock found inside the room. This is all hard evidence that we can see in the photos taken by the investigators shortly after the crime. What does the prosecution have to support its theory?

I will grant you the rock shattered the window from the outside.

Can you prove WHO threw the rock?

Guede? Knox? Sollecito?

We already know there IS NO Guede TRACE of him in Filomena's room. Not on Filomena's room exterior wall, not on the outside window sill, no trace of Guede on the broken glass still in place on the right window's frame. No Guede hairs or fiber from clothing, no fingerprints whatsoever in Filomena's room. No Guede shoe prints, no dirt from the garden below, no grass, no twigs.

If Guede climbed through the broken window, there is ZERO TRACE EVIDENCE from Guede to prove it.

There is ZERO EVIDENCE someone climbed through the broken window into Filomena's room.
 
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Torre's demonstration on Sfarzo

How in the world would he know that.

JungleJim,

"Then he suddenly throws his cigarette away, grabs my jaw with an unbelievable strength and, simulating a knife with his forefinger, he sticks it into my throat until it impacts against the angle of my right jaw, then he sticks it again on the other side to show me how the larger wound was made. He doesn't forget to make me feel quite strongly the nail of his thumb, since he thinks that's how the large bruise under Meredith's jaw was formed."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html

Chris
 
I can think of one source to help identify who was responsible for throwing the rock through the window. If the police had bothered to collect the forensics at the time it would have helped complete the picture of what happened that night.
 
I can think of one source to help identify who was responsible for throwing the rock through the window. If the police had bothered to collect the forensics at the time it would have helped complete the picture of what happened that night.


Well, share with us, Dan O. If all us kids work together we can bust this thing wide open and get that poor, innocent girl out of stir.
 
JungleJim,

"Then he suddenly throws his cigarette away, grabs my jaw with an unbelievable strength and, simulating a knife with his forefinger, he sticks it into my throat until it impacts against the angle of my right jaw, then he sticks it again on the other side to show me how the larger wound was made. He doesn't forget to make me feel quite strongly the nail of his thumb, since he thinks that's how the large bruise under Meredith's jaw was formed."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html

Chris

Does this theory incapacitate Meredith with the first blow, so she can not react to the subsequent blows even by reflex?
 
So, how does "a simple burglary turned nasty" come to include a sexual assault, in your view?

That's one of the few things that we seem to know definitively: that Rudy performed a sexual assault on Meredith. (I suppose there are still those who will argue that it was consensual but that doesn't apply in this scenario.)
I think Guede's sexual assault of Meredith was opportunistic - he was discovered breaking and entering, and found himself trapped in a house with a woman he'd met and previously been attracted to, him armed with a knife, her completely unarmed. I don't think he intended to kill her, and was probably shocked and panicked when it happened - I think he's probably telling the truth when he said he went to get towels from the bathroom to try and stop the bleeding. I doubt Guede would have deliberately set out to do something so drastic that it meant he would have to leave the country.

We've heard so much about Amanda's (pretty ordinary) sex life, yet we've heard nothing at all about Guede's, despite him being the only one whose DNA was found inside the victim. How might his sexual history (or lack thereof) have contributed to what happened? From the testimony of the people who knew him, it seems he hadn't had a girlfriend. There's some suggestion that he was known to hassle women, especially when he was drunk; a witness named Momi (later dismissed because he sold his story) said that Guede could be "a nuisance to girls, he’d block their path and try to hassle them. When we were in crowded places he stole their bags". When Guede was caught after breaking into the nursery, he was found with a woman's watch in his backpack.

How would someone in Guede's situation react if he found himself in the position he did with Meredith - alone with her in the house, armed, in a position of absolute power over her, and able to force her to do whatever he wanted (or so he must have thought)? Had he ever been in that situation before? Probably not, since on the two previous occasions he'd been caught, one was by Tramantano and his girlfriend, and the other was by a nursery school teacher and her son accompanied by a locksmith. I don't think it's difficult to imagine how, in the heat of the moment and high on panic and adrenalin (if nothing else), Guede attempted sexual assault, and even less difficult to see how that assault may have turned into murder (very common in cases of rape, of course).

And even if we are to dismiss the burglary turned sexual assault theory as unlikely, the problem is that we then have to accept scenarios which are infinitely more unlikely than that. We have to accept that three near strangers with no history of anything similar plotted and carried out a sex game and murder together, the timing of which was decided on the spur of the moment, with no motive whatsoever; or alternatively, we have to accept that an argument between housemates over money or cleaning (!) somehow escalated into sexual assault and murder. Surely that's a far bigger leap than the armed intruder turning rapist theory. A mark of how unlikely these alternative scenarios are is that, invariably, heavy drinking and drug-taking are suggested to explain how the murder happened, even though there's no evidence of either. In contrast, there's no need to invoke alcohol or drugs to explain Guede's involvement (though it's possible of course that they were involved). When faced with a scenario that is somewhat unlikely but certainly has precedent (I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time an armed intruder attempted rape) and an alternative scenario which is pretty much unprecedented in the history of crime, it seems to me we have to accept that the former is more probable, at least without very convincing evidence to the contrary - evidence I don't think has been supplied in this case.
This discussion keeps going on, as I've said before, because the evidence of multiple attackers will remain forever hidden to us outsiders. It's something that one has to take on faith: that the evidence was strong and fairly presented, that the defense couldn't refute it, and that the "jury" evaluated it rationally and didn't simply kowtow to the prosecution & the professional judges. I have always had trouble with this faith-based aspect of the case and still do. I am hoping that the Sentenza will shed some light on it.
Yes, I'll agree with you there. I thought Micheli's reasoning in terms of both the multiple attacker scenario and the moving of the body was very speculative (as is only to be expected from a pre-trial report which didn't carry the same burden of proof as was required in the trial) and no doubt those issues were discussed in much more detail during the trial itself. But since we don't know what was said during the trial, we're left pretty much in the dark in terms of what was proven and what wasn't. Like you, I hope the judge's report will give us more conclusive information on those aspects of the case.
 
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It would have been nice if Amanda's and Raffaele's experts could agree on if she was attacked from the front or the back, Chris. In my opinion that cast a lot of doubt on just how expert they really were. I do tend to go with the lone attacker theory and believe one smaller knife could have caused all the wounds.
I see that just as evidence that even the experts can't say with any certainty how the attack happened, and that all theories are subjective. To me that seems like a pretty normal difference in opinion.

I agree with you though in that this disagreement might have made the defence case appear weaker than it was, even though in reality it shouldn't have. Juries expect certainty and definite answers even when the truth is that none can be provided, and all interpretations are just opinion.
 
Dr. Lalli

For example, just above, halides1 has provided the identity of someone he thinks holds the key to blowing the whole conspiracy wide open--one of the medical examiners. All conspiracy theories contain identifiable souls such as these. Real conspiracies contain people like this, too, and they are the ones who help reveal the truth about what happened.

Why didn't the defense teams follow up on halides1's allegations and subpoena this fellow? Are they idiots? Lazy? In on it?

Stilicho,

Wikipedia give its source as the Micheli report for its statement: “The forensic pathologist, Dr. Lalli, initially concluded that the pattern of bruises, defensive wounds/cuts, and stab wounds could not indicate whether one or multiple attackers had been present.[15]”

I resist the word conspiracy to describe garden-variety tunnel vision on the part of the investigators. In a previous comment, I speculated that Dr. Lalli might have been fired for failing to conclude that there must have been multiple assailants, but I was only raising this as a possibility. Anyone who thinks that no one is ever fired for not following the party line is, in Quadraginta’s phrase, “touchingly naïve.” However, suppose that Dr. Lalli really were fired for leaking. He is still one more medical examiner or pathologist who does not rule out the lone assailant theory.

Chris
 
Stilicho,

Wikipedia give its source as the Micheli report for its statement: “The forensic pathologist, Dr. Lalli, initially concluded that the pattern of bruises, defensive wounds/cuts, and stab wounds could not indicate whether one or multiple attackers had been present.[15]”

I resist the word conspiracy to describe garden-variety tunnel vision on the part of the investigators. In a previous comment, I speculated that Dr. Lalli might have been fired for failing to conclude that there must have been multiple assailants, but I was only raising this as a possibility. Anyone who thinks that no one is ever fired for not following the party line is, in Quadraginta’s phrase, “touchingly naïve.” However, suppose that Dr. Lalli really were fired for leaking. He is still one more medical examiner or pathologist who does not rule out the lone assailant theory.

Chris

Where were Amanda and Raf on the night in question?
 
JungleJim,

"Then he suddenly throws his cigarette away, grabs my jaw with an unbelievable strength and, simulating a knife with his forefinger, he sticks it into my throat until it impacts against the angle of my right jaw, then he sticks it again on the other side to show me how the larger wound was made. He doesn't forget to make me feel quite strongly the nail of his thumb, since he thinks that's how the large bruise under Meredith's jaw was formed."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html

Chris

And so, the 45 other wounds, the smashing her head into the wall, & the strangling, were all necessary after that?
 
Wikipedia give its source as the Micheli report for its statement: “The forensic pathologist, Dr. Lalli, initially concluded that the pattern of bruises, defensive wounds/cuts, and stab wounds could not indicate whether one or multiple attackers had been present.[15]”

The pathologist also indicated that a small knife carried by Raffaele was possibly the murder weapon:

... a flick knife with an 8.5cm blade, defined by the pathologist as compatible with the possible murder weapon.

Both of these opinions are incompatible with the three person, two knife conspiracy favored by the prosecutor.
 
About the broken window, was there any glass fragments found anywhere else in the apartments, bathrooms, hall, or Meredith Kercher's room for example?
 
About the broken window, was there any glass fragments found anywhere else in the apartments, bathrooms, hall, or Meredith Kercher's room for example?

Good point. If it was a real break in the burgler would have probably dragged/carried a bit of the glass into at least the next room.
 
Good point. If it was a real break in the burgler would have probably dragged/carried a bit of the glass into at least the next room.

A honest question, but considering that the burglar would have to climb over the glass on the sill, and then step through it on the floor, I would of thought there was a strong possibility of the glass found outside the room.

One of the thing that bothers me about the burglary then murder scenario, is that there is no forensic evidence from Filomena room, transfered to other scenes, but there is of Meredith's murder into Filomena's room (I'll add, of Meredith's murder to other places in the apartments/flat).
 
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