Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Alt+F4]

The lies and the shifting stories are one thing but the "I-can't-remembers" are overwhelmingly problematic.

I think the "I can't remember" stuff is the only time she is actually telling the truth. I think the two of them were very high when they got to the cottage and saw RG in the process of attacking MK. Perhaps thinking it was only a game, they participated in the murder only to realize she was really dead when they came down from their high.

 

[RoseMontague]

There is no way she would having facing the same amount of prison time for stealing and lying to the police as she would for murder. Her lawyers would have advised her of this and they, her family and her supporters never have suggested that her involvement was drug stealing gone bad.

That is assuming she told her lawyers the truth. As far as taking her lawyers advice it is obvious she didn't on several occasions. Speaking of that, do you think they would have advised her on what to wear and how to act in court? Or spoken to her family about such things as taking vacation pics in front of the murder house?

To me this makes more sense than the prosecution's theory. I am open to other theories because I just don't buy it as it stands now.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

The reason why I asked if Italy had chip and PIN in 2007, is that you now need a PIN to use credit/debit cards in shops (I am speaking of UK for at least 4 years and Europe) rather than swipe and signature, which was easier to get away with. Though I cannot remember if there was a crossover period between the two types of systems.

Though it is still possible to use the card for online transactions, but banks are usually good at spotting fraudulent activities from my recent experience, and suspend the card which requires phoning the bank/card provider.

I don't know how the system in Italy works. I do know that here in the US, you can still swipe your debit card as a credit card.

If it works the same as in the UK, it makes even less sense for him to swipe the card(s).

Alt: She remembered enough to go back to arrange/clean the scene before calling the police.......

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt: She remembered enough to go back to arrange/clean the scene before calling the police.......

Indeed. If the murder took place around 11p-12 midnight, that was plenty of time for them to come down off their high, realize what they had done and think what to do next.

 

[Alt+F4]

That is assuming she told her lawyers the truth.

What would be her motivation for lying to her lawyers?

Speaking of that, do you think they would have advised her on what to wear and how to act in court?

I think they knew what a farce it would be if she appeared in court dressed like Maggie Smith. As for how to act, all they could offer was advice.

Or spoken to her family about such things as taking vacation pics in front of the murder house?

I don't think her lawyers would have even thought that her family would do something as foolish as taking photos at the murder scene.

 

[odeed]

I don't know how the system in Italy works. I do know that here in the US, you can still swipe your debit card as a credit card.

If it works the same as in the UK, it makes even less sense for him to swipe the card(s).

Alt: She remembered enough to go back to arrange/clean the scene before calling the police.......

Probably does not matter if it was swipe card or the "chip and PIN" as the cards would of been canceled by the bank as soon as the theft was reported, if it was just a burglary (my experience from about 10 years ago).

Am I right in remembering that coroners report said that Meridith Kercher died slowly? Is it possible that whoever assaulted left her to die, but took the phones so MK could not call for help, then returned a few hours later to see if she was dead and staged the burglary and rape scene?

 

[stilicho]

I have always had trouble with this faith-based aspect of the case and still do. I am hoping that the Sentenza will shed some light on it.

The evidence of multiple attackers was produced by the medical examiner. Hardly faith-based.

I think you might be trying to say that we cannot know all the details of everything collected as evidence. That's not what "faith-based" means. I can accept the work of Galileo, Kepler and Copernicus before me without waking up each day and wondering if the earth still revolves around the sun.

In the same way, we have to accept the work of the medical examiner in the face of no better evidence that the contrary is true. The defence teams couldn't agree on the way that this mythical lone assailant attacked Meredith and neither can Kestrel or katy_did on this very thread.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Probably does not matter if it was swipe card or the "chip and PIN" as the cards would of been canceled by the bank as soon as the theft was reported, if it was just a burglary (my experience from about 10 years ago).

Yes, that's true...and yet another reason it makes no sense for him to grab the debit card and not any other kind of valuables.

Am I right in remembering that coroners report said that Meridith Kercher died slowly? Is it possible that whoever assaulted left her to die, but took the phones so MK could not call for help, then returned a few hours later to see if she was dead and staged the burglary and rape scene?

That's exactly what the Prosecution presented.

 

[stilicho]

I think the "I can't remember" stuff is the only time she is actually telling the truth. I think the two of them were very high when they got to the cottage and saw RG in the process of attacking MK. Perhaps thinking it was only a game, they participated in the murder only to realize she was really dead when they came down from their high.

I am completely of the opposite opinion. The more I think about it the less I think they were even moderately high. And I mean on anything including the so-called "power drugs".

Regardless of what I think, anyone who risks a life sentence in prison rather than even inventing a complete and total lie is either represented by idiots or is themselves an idiot. That's what I really mean by those "I-don't-remembers".

Q: "Where were you on the night of the murder?"

A1: "I can't remember."

--or--

Q: "Where were you on the night of the murder?"

A2: "I was practicing yoga inside a closet where nobody saw me before, during, or after."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Carlo Torre

Question the lone assailant theory? Who would do that and why? The evidence from the medical examiner's office was that Meredith was restrained and attacked by multiple assailants.

Nobody is questioning the lone assailant theory. There is simply no honest evidence to support it.

Stilicho,

The first medical examiner was removed from the case, allegedly for leaking (sorry, can’t think of his name at the moment). Yet given that this investigation leaked like a sieve, it is possible that he was sacked because he believed that there was only one assailant.

More importantly, the defense disputed the medical examiner’s conclusion that there had to be more than one assailant. Both Torre and Introna believed that one assailant could have killed her, although they did not agree on the specifics.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-07/knox-defense-has-its-day/
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407957_knox09.html

Frank Sfarzo reported (second link), “There's an instant attack of a lonely killer who grabs Meredith at the jaw with his left hand and with the other one he stabs her. That explains the bruise at the nape, occurred when he put her down. That also explains the lack of large defense wounds since, according to the professor, Meredith didn't have the time to see the knife.”

Chris

 

[Kestrel]

It was Sollecito's footprint in the bathroom. This, again, has been discussed in this thread.

Francesco Vinci explained why the footprint wasn't a match for Raffaele, and why it was a good match for Rudy.

Who repositioned the body?

Rudy turned Meredith over so he could rape her.

Why didn't Meredith defend herself against Rudy?

She tried, but Rudy was larger and stronger.

And again, you cannot explain how he went from being well enough to climb in the hardest to reach window at the cottage, to being sick enough to have to use the restroom immediately, to being well enough to attack/rape/murder Meredith with two different knives while she didn't use her martial arts skills to defend herself.

Meredith's wounds are fully compatible with one knife. A small knife that matches the bloody imprint found in her room.

Where was Amanda on the night of the murder?

The most likely time for the murder is just after 9 PM, immediately after Meredith arrived home. Amanda was at Raffaele's flat, watching the final scenes of a movie.

 

[piktor]

It's something that one has to take on faith: that the evidence was strong and fairly presented, that the defense couldn't refute it, and that the "jury" evaluated it rationally and didn't simply kowtow to the prosecution & the professional judges. I have always had trouble with this faith-based aspect of the case and still do. I am hoping that the Sentenza will shed some light on it.

The victim's family asked the judges not to publish the details of the victim's death as presented in court.

We are not the reviewing judges here. We have what we have to work with and if it is fair for Knox, her lawyer and most importantly, for the Kerchers it is fair enough for the rest of the world. It has nothing to do with faith but all to do with discretion and rightly so, if it is solicited by the victim's family.

There is a human aspect to this story. The Kerchers should be constantly present in our thoughts and arguments.

 

[piktor]

BobTheDonkey: Why didn't Meredith defend herself against Rudy?

Kestrel: She tried, but Rudy was larger and stronger.

Meredith struggled but no defensive wounds, no skin from her attacker under her fingernails?

BobThe Donkey: Where was Amanda on the night of the murder?

Kestrel: The most likely time for the murder is just after 9 PM, immediately after Meredith arrived home. Amanda was at Raffaele's flat, watching the final scenes of a movie.

The loud scream heard by several neighbors at 11:00PM and the sound of three people running up the cottage's gravel path moments later are to be erased from the record?

 

[RoseMontague]

Stilicho,

The first medical examiner was removed from the case, allegedly for leaking (sorry, can’t think of his name at the moment). Yet given that this investigation leaked like a sieve, it is possible that he was sacked because he believed that there was only one assailant.

More importantly, the defense disputed the medical examiner’s conclusion that there had to be more than one assailant. Both Torre and Introna believed that one assailant could have killed her, although they did not agree on the specifics.



Frank Sfarzo reported (second link), “There's an instant attack of a lonely killer who grabs Meredith at the jaw with his left hand and with the other one he stabs her. That explains the bruise at the nape, occurred when he put her down. That also explains the lack of large defense wounds since, according to the professor, Meredith didn't have the time to see the knife.”

Chris

It would have been nice if Amanda's and Raffaele's experts could agree on if she was attacked from the front or the back, Chris. In my opinion that cast a lot of doubt on just how expert they really were. I do tend to go with the lone attacker theory and believe one smaller knife could have caused all the wounds.

 

[piktor]

Q: "Where were you on the night of the murder?"

A1: "I can't remember."

--or--

Q: "Where were you on the night of the murder?"

A2: "I was practicing yoga inside a closet where nobody saw me before, during, or after."

That made me laugh out loud, stilicho.

Knox also said she took a long shower along with Sollecito and he had the kindness of heart to wash her ear piercings. But she said she was not sure when the long shower took place- that night, the night before, maybe two nights prior.

The long bath was lovely, we assume, hence the vaporous recollection.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two dynamics of the attack; Torre's credentials

RoseMontague,

The different theories (attack from the front or behind) are not entirely bad for the defense if both can be supported with evidence. The defense only has to produce reasonable doubt about the prosecution's version, not necessarily explain how the attack actually happened.

In the link I previously provided, Barbie Nadeau refers to Dr. Torre as “Carlo Torre, noted professor of criminal science in Turin, Italy.” Another site reports “Torre, who is based in Turin, Italy, is considered a renowned forensic consultant in that country who has performed at least 5,000 autopsies and has worked on a number of high-profile cases.”

http://blogs.discovery.com/bizarre/2009/07/update-on-amanda-knox-trial.html

Chris

 

[piktor]

Reversal of the burden of proof followed by an appeal to authority.

The defendants are trying the old and tested "we wuz framed" tactic. They have acted like flustered babies with kid's tales of forgetfulness, obfuscations, and incredible multi-version alibis.

Someone has to be the adult here and take this death seriously. It happens to be the prosecution. The prosecution and judges have been deferential to the victim's family. They have acted responsibly towards the defendants. They have acted responsibly with the investigation. They have acted responsibly towards the ones that matter.

The Kercher family agrees with the investigation and the verdict.

The Seattle Angel asserts this has been a fair trial. So does her lawyer. This is the honest and freely given assesment of two intelligent adults.

That is enough proof.

 

[lector]

The evidence of multiple attackers was produced by the medical examiner. Hardly faith-based.

I think you might be trying to say that we cannot know all the details of everything collected as evidence. That's not what "faith-based" means. I can accept the work of Galileo, Kepler and Copernicus before me without waking up each day and wondering if the earth still revolves around the sun.

In the same way, we have to accept the work of the medical examiner in the face of no better evidence that the contrary is true. The defence teams couldn't agree on the way that this mythical lone assailant attacked Meredith and neither can Kestrel or katy_did on this very thread.

I am saying that the evidence that the jury considered was presented in closed court sessions, for understandable reasons. We cannot consider that evidence directly; we can only consider the jury's acceptance of it. Right now, to me, accepting that portion of the evidence is an act of faith.

The victim's family asked the judges not to publish the details of the victim's death as presented in court.

We are not the reviewing judges here. We have what we have to work with and if it is fair for Knox, her lawyer and most importantly, for the Kerchers it is fair enough for the rest of the world. It has nothing to do with faith but all to do with discretion and rightly so, if it is solicited by the victim's family.

There is a human aspect to this story. The Kerchers should be constantly present in our thoughts and arguments.

I am well aware of all this. I do not understand why people are constantly compelled to repeat it. I have never advocated anything contrary to the wishes of the Kerchers.

I don't expect the Sentenza to offer additional details of Meredith's death. I am hoping that it will offer some insight into the jury's thought processes in considering that portion of the evidence which we, the public, will never see.

The fact that that evidence remains hidden is fodder for lone-wolf theorists, in my view; it's why we have so much speculation here & elsewhere. I haven't found any of those theories compelling, but I suspect that they will always be with us.

 

[stilicho]

Stilicho,

The first medical examiner was removed from the case, allegedly for leaking (sorry, can’t think of his name at the moment). Yet given that this investigation leaked like a sieve, it is possible that he was sacked because he believed that there was only one assailant.

More importantly, the defense disputed the medical examiner’s conclusion that there had to be more than one assailant. Both Torre and Introna believed that one assailant could have killed her, although they did not agree on the specifics.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-07/knox-defense-has-its-day/
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407957_knox09.html

Frank Sfarzo reported (second link), “There's an instant attack of a lonely killer who grabs Meredith at the jaw with his left hand and with the other one he stabs her. That explains the bruise at the nape, occurred when he put her down. That also explains the lack of large defense wounds since, according to the professor, Meredith didn't have the time to see the knife.”

Chris

Unfortunately for us, I suppose, Frank "Sfarzo" isn't a medical examiner. The experts they did supply couldn't agree on much and wouldn't have dented the convincing evidence of multiple attackers.

It's astonishing that, without any evidence whatsoever, you suggest that a medical examiner would be removed from a case because he refused to attest to the conspiracy. Isn't he still alive? Or is he a coward like the 9/11 firefighters who are alleged to have gone along with the conspiracy?

I would still like to understand better the mechanism of this conspiracy. At least a few pieces of evidence might be helpful. As it is, nobody--not even the defence teams--alleges such a thing. And, as I recall, Ms Knox said she had a fair trial.

Or is she in on it too?

 

[stilicho]

That made me laugh out loud, stilicho.

Knox also said she took a long shower along with Sollecito and he had the kindness of heart to wash her ear piercings. But she said she was not sure when the long shower took place- that night, the night before, maybe two nights prior.

The long bath was lovely, we assume, hence the vaporous recollection.

She couldn't even clearly remember whether she made love with her romantic interest. What a sweetheart!