At what stage is abortion immoral?

[Ziggurat]

The argument that has been presented is that people should accept the consequences of their actions. That is a fallacious argument, as the consequences are not immutable: an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy carried to term is not an unavoidable consequence of having sex.

Nope. You still don't get it.

Your argument is that the fetus shouldn't be punished.
I also reject that argument: the foetus is not being punished, any more than sperm are punished by spermicide.

First off, it isn't my argument. Secondly, you presume that the fetus is not a person. but that is precisely the issue which is in question, and for which there is not in fact an unambiguous answer. Which WAS my point, and which you didn't get either.

 

[kerikiwi]

Nope. You still don't get it.



First off, it isn't my argument. Secondly, you presume that the fetus is not a person. but that is precisely the issue which is in question, and for which there is not in fact an unambiguous answer. Which WAS my point, and which you didn't get either.

I 'get' your argument. I think they are wrong.
You are right: the fetus is not a person.

And in fact one argument that was presented was that people should suffer the consequences of having sex.

 

[AWPrime]

That is unless you want to have a child. then celibacy is not needed
Which is why we are forced to give abortions like hotcakes. Nobody likes to excercise personal responsibility in this country. Everybody wants to do whatever they want and not have to pay the consequences. In a perfect world everybody would excecise personal responsibility, but we don't live in a perfect world. So there you have it.

Having an abortion is exercising personal responsibility.
It would be irresponsible to take it to term if you can't or don't want to take care of the result.

 

[Ziggurat]

I 'get' your argument.

No, you don't, because you keep trying to paraphrasing it in ways which just don't match the argument as it was actually made.

And in fact one argument that was presented was that people should suffer the consequences of having sex.

No. The phrase "accept the consequences" was used, but "suffer the consequences" is your own invention. And yes, the distinction matters. The concept of carrying a child to term being a punishment is pretty much exclusively a meme among advocates of abortion, NOT opponents.

 

[AWPrime]

You are human from the time your specific DNA has combined to the time you take a dirt nap. The DNA if a human zygote is distinctly human and not any of other species.

The DNA argument. Its quite worthless, as I don't care about DNA, I care about real persons.

 

[uruk]

Well, no I didn't know that because that is not what you said.

My apologies if I was not clear. I have had a extensive discusion in a previous thread so in my fatigue I am responding in a sort of short hand. I will try to be more explicit im my opinions.

 

[I Ratant]

That isn't the argument against abortion. The argument is that the fetus shouldn't be punished (by being killed) for the mom's behavior.

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The "mom's behavior" can be nothing more than being female.
Rapists don't choose their victims based on character, education, employment...
And there's the medical situations.
This is not a bumper sticker solution situation.

 

[I Ratant]

No, you don't, because you keep trying to paraphrasing it in ways which just don't match the argument as it was actually made.



No. The phrase "accept the consequences" was used, but "suffer the consequences" is your own invention. And yes, the distinction matters. The concept of carrying a child to term being a punishment is pretty much exclusively a meme among advocates of abortion, NOT opponents.

.
Unwanted children are frequently made aware of that very early in life.
They aren't happy children.
And don't make for happy adults.

 

[uruk]

Allowing an abortion when an unwanted pregnancy occurs is taking control of consequences.

Yes. Abortion can be seen as one form of taking responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy, But the question or issue I was addressing was one of morality. I do not see abortion as being a moral decision. I feel that abortion carries with it a detrimental effect where the value or imortance of mankind as a whole is taken into consideration.

I will explain further in a separate post where i will explicitly explain my personal view on this subject.

The consequences you want people to accept are not unavoidable. If an abortion is an option, the consequences of taking part in sex are changed.

An unwanted pregnancy should not be enforced in order that the woman suffer consequences.

It should not be used as punishment for behaviour you do not like.

I do not see it as punishment. Taking responsibility for your actions means doing what is "right" to correct or remediate a situation where your actions were involved.

If I was the cause of a car accident, I would not try to drive away or lie to the police officer or the other party in the accident about my part in the accident. Nor would I try to avoid paying for damages that I caused.

I would instead take the blame for my part in the accident and I would pay for the damages I caused. I do not see this as punishment. I see this as doing the "right thing".
I may not like to or particularly want to do these things, But I would not be able to sleep at night if don't them.

It is a personal conviction to be sure, but I am not the only one who feels this way. And I think the world would a slightly better place if everyone felt this way.

In the case of abortion, I feel that if the woman is healthy of a legal adult age and the pregnacy was not due to non-consentual sex and the preganacy does not present any extrordinary health risk to the woman, then nine months of pregnancy is not an unwarranted price to pay so that a human being can come to full term.

Through out history people sacrificed much more so that others can live. And many have done it against thier will.

Having said this I am not advocating that a woman should be legaly forced to bring an unwanted pregnancy to term. That statement was just to place this idea within a certain context. I am saying that this should be a personal conviction on the woman's part. And the man who is also responsible for the unwanted pregnancy should bear a financial or supportive committment to the woman.

This should be something that is "right thing" to do in regard to human life.

Again, I will explain further my views on the importance of human life and responsibilities to that life in a separate post.

 

[mumblethrax]

When exactly is this?

Depends on the precise question you're asking, since 'to feel pain' can be interpreted in lots of ways. Even when the question is carefully formulated, you'll get a variety of estimates, although they'll mostly hover around the boundary between the second and third trimesters.

How do you distinguish between "feeling pain" and a simple reflex action?

I'd look to the timeline for development of the neurological structures associated with the affective dimension of pain. In particularly, I'd want to pay close attention to the anterior cingulate cortex.

 

[uruk]

Consequence is just another word for punishment when the consequence is unwanted, not agreed to, and imposed by a third party.

No. a consequence is a result of an action. Responsibilty is to be answerable or accountable for something within one's power, control, or management.

There alot of things we are responsible for that we do not like to do, or not want to be responsible for, but that is not punsihment. It is an obligation, something that has to be done.

Some posters consider sex as something that needs to be punished but want to play games so they don't have to say it.

Why not replace it with a crime and see the lack of a difference in the argument:


Moral crusader: You just had sex and became impregnated.
Woman: So?
Moral crusader: Now you have to face the consequence.
Woman: Yes, the consequence is that I will have an abortion.
Moral crusader: No, the consequence is that I will make you carry to term.

Cop:You just went into a bank and stole money.
Thief:So?
Cop:Now you must face the consequences.
Thief:Yes, the consequence is that I will sneak off with the cash.
Cop:No, the consequence is that I will put you in prison.

The argument is the same. Sex is treated as the crime, the pregnancy the punishment, and the abortion the escape that must be thwarted so that the villainess can take her punishment.

Well strawman arguments aside, the next to the last line in each scenario are decisions not consequences. They are a response to a consequence.

Now, I don't think sex is equivalent to a bank robbery or that abortion is getting away with ill-gotten gains.

Nor do I.
I feel that abortion is detrimental to mankind in a moral sense. I will elaborate further but the short of it is that our culture and society values, reveres and protects human life up onto an abribrtary point. that point being some time periond inside the womb. If that line is allowed to slide arbitrarily for reasons such as inconvieniant pregnancy, it may become easy to rationalized that protection away at other points in a human beings life. I think human life is an all or nothing proposition.

But that's what using this "pregnancy as consequence" crap is doing, and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Pregnancy as a consequence of sex is a fact. That is how you get pregnant.

 

[uruk]

My post before last elaborates on what I think about using 'consequence' when you mean 'punishment.'

I do not say or imply "punisment" by my statements at all. I am saying "obligation", "responsibility".

Getting pregnant accidentaly is not a crime nor should it be punished. I am saying the once the process of development of a human being is initiated (in the case of accidental pregnancy as a result of consentual sex), we should have an obligation to that human life, that is, if we place an importance or a value on human life.

It is about not being hypocritical in the face of responsibility or inconvienance.

If I gave the impression of punishment, I appologise it was not my intention. I will endeavour to be more clear in my statement in the future.

My most recent post is clear. If you argue that abortion doesn't change the consequences of pregnancy, bringing up a dozen unrelated points doesn't help your argument.

Abortion does change the cosequences of an unwanted pregnancy, but not in a "good" way where the value of human life is concerned.

The points are related but I may not have expressed them clearly. I will try to do so in a separate post.

 

[Ziggurat]

.
The "mom's behavior" can be nothing more than being female.
Rapists don't choose their victims based on character, education, employment...

I already pointed out that the case of rape is different, so why are you saying this as if it invalidates anything I said? All it does is show you haven't been paying attention.

And there's the medical situations.

What medical situations? Situations where the fetus has medical problems or situations where the mother has medical problems? In either case though, that's still a minority of not only pregnancies, but of abortions as well.

This is not a bumper sticker solution situation.

I never suggested it was. In fact, my whole point was that it comes down to whether or not the fetus is a person, and that this question is NOT simple. But thanks for demonstrating, once again, that you cannot get your head around the argument, and so your criticisms keep falling flat.

 

[Ziggurat]

Unwanted children are frequently made aware of that very early in life.
They aren't happy children.
And don't make for happy adults.

There's this secret program that people developed. I wonder if you've heard of it. It's called "adoption".

 

[Ziggurat]

Having an abortion is exercising personal responsibility.

Not if the fetus is a person, then it's an abrogation of responsibility.

It would be irresponsible to take it to term if you can't or don't want to take care of the result.

No. You can give babies up for adoption, or in many states you don't even have to do that much, you can just leave it at a hospital.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Well strawman arguments aside, the next to the last line in each scenario are decisions not consequences. They are a response to a consequence.

It's a stupid argument either way. We give cancer treatments to smokers. We save the lives of wounded drunken drivers. To look at a pregnant women and tell her that she can't rectify her situation because that'd be "irresponsible" is simply ridiculous. Matter of fact, the whole discussion is pointless. Dislike abortions? Fine, do something that's proven to reduce their numbers: comprehensive sex ed and freely available condoms and morning-after pills. Want abortions to end? Fine, help make a society where they're not necessary.

Sitting there comfortably in your armchair judging other people, without the slightest bit of first-hand experience or understanding of shades of grey, is not exactly what I'd call helpful behaviour.

Not if the fetus is a person, then it's an abrogation of responsibility.

It isn't. Unless you can give the slightest bit of evidence that there exists such a thing as a "soul", a sperm cell and an egg isn't automatically a person the second they're brought together. If I throw together sugar and butter in a bowl, they're still just mixed sugar and butter. I can't look into the bowl and say "look! I baked a cake!".

Unless I'm anti-abortion, that is. This is apparently their mindset.

 

[I Ratant]

There's this secret program that people developed. I wonder if you've heard of it. It's called "adoption".

.
I have heard of that.
One of my best friends was brought to term by a crack whore, and abandoned in the hospital.
And adopted.
She loves her parents.
Adoption (tossing out the kid) isn't usually done in many families, they just keep the damn kid, and treat it like dirt.

 

[I Ratant]

I already pointed out that the case of rape is different, so why are you saying this as if it invalidates anything I said? All it does is show you haven't been paying attention.
...

.
Amazingly enough, the universe doesn't revolve around you.
Invalidating anything you may have said is not a priority of mine.
If what I say invalidates what you have said, and that occurs a lot, that's because I have the opinion that whatever you might be talking about is covered by what my opinion may be, without specifying you as the source.
There's others who get it (many things) wrong also.

 

[kerikiwi]

I do not see it as punishment.

I do. Being forced to be pregnant when you don't want to be is a punishment.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I do. Being forced to be pregnant when you don't want to be is a punishment.

-Ah, John, isn't, it? I'm Dr. Doe.
-Good to see you, doc.
-Now, you've lost your leg, haven't you?
-Yes, I hurt it while driving under the influence of alcohol. I trust you can give me a prosthesis (spelling?)?
-No, I'm sorry, but... see, ordinarily we would, but you drove under the influence, and you're gonna have to take responsibility for your actions, so I'm afraid you'll have to walk on one leg and a crutch for the rest of your life.