What about this crop circle?

[JoeTheJuggler]

See, I've experienced many of those things myself. And more. So I already know telepathy, strange lights, synchronicity, "She" is real.

Have you ever been to a professional magic show? You do realize that your senses can be fooled?

Synchronicity is a logically inconsistent idea. (It claims, basically, that there are acausal causes for random events.)

 

[tsig]

That's only a very small part of it.
The reason the crop circles have a live after they are made anonymously is because of the speculation over their perceived mystical nature.
As I have pointed out as soon as the author is known the bubble is burst and the art dies.

So the art of the crop circle goes beyond the physical circle and encompasses the relation of the viewer as well and part of that relationship is the production of wonder and that is aided by perception of the mythical origin of the circle?

 

[Moss]

Somehow this sounds like cereological trolling.

 

[cyborg]

See, I've experienced many of those things myself. And more. So I already know telepathy, strange lights, synchronicity, "She" is real. I can see her hand in the crop circle phenomenon.

Ok, if I lived in an age where it was difficult to produce light on demand I might find lights in a field where crop circles were made "strange". If you are going to say that these aren't obviously the people making the circles using torches then you're going to have to be more specific as to what is "strange" about them; if we've all agreed that it is not from alien spacecraft that is.

How do you know telepathy exists? Is this the sort of after the fact telepathy where you get together afterwards with like minded people to discuss whether or not you were engaged in telepathy?

Synchronicity has been discussed at length in another thread. Essentially it says that if something unlikely happens you can either say it's synchroncity or it isn't according to the whim of the person calling it synchronicity or not.

As to seeing "her" (the muse presumably) in the phenomena what does this mean? Why is this specifically relevant to crop circles and not to any other form of artistic endenvour?

I disagree with that statement because bureaucracy exists.

I fail to see how that follows.

 

[carlitos]

Am I reading this right?

A - Telepathy is real.
B - Hey, why don't you win the $1mm prize?
A - Telepathy can't be tested because XYZ.
B - Then it's not real. Get it?
A - No, I just "know" because we've experienced it.
B - What did you experience?
A - I felt something about crop circles?
B - Jokers make those all the time.
A - No, some are 'special' - I just 'feel' the energy from them.
B - That's what the jokers like about doing it. If fools the credulous into thinking space aliens.
A - Nuh uh.

This is depressing.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Ok, if I lived in an age where it was difficult to produce light on demand I might find lights in a field where crop circles were made "strange".

Yup.

And we've already covered the same basic idea with all of Limbo's arguments--lack of porta potties, it's something difficult and time consuming, the makers don't usually get paid in money for their efforts, it sometimes rains, there are squashed bugs, there are bent stalks (including lots of particular observations that are all treated as anomalies without ever using any kind of control to see if they are indeed anomalous), etc.

But I'm pretty sure I'm on Limbo's extensive ignore list.

 

[Limbo]

This is depressing.

Er, shall we just call it a day then?

 

[Stray Cat]

So the art of the crop circle goes beyond the physical circle and encompasses the relation of the viewer as well and part of that relationship is the production of wonder and that is aided by perception of the mythical origin of the circle?

It is audience participation theater, where the audience are the only players.

 

[fls]

If the crop circle phenomenon is psychic, paranormal, and archetypal then it is interactive with and responsive to people and so it is inevitably elusive. Just when you think you have it nailed down, things will change. That's the way it is. No ones psi is an island. IMO you will never nail down the paranormal because it can't be institutionalized, can't be categorized, can't be disproved or proved. Only experienced.

That's twice now you've used the word invent in a wrong way, or at least in a way inapplicable to me. I'm not inventing an explanation or a religiously based justification. I'm trying to understand my paranormal experiences. Some of which circlemakers claim to have. So naturally, the trail lead there.

You haven't said anything meaningful. The 'normal' is also composed only of experiences, and includes the subset you have labelled 'paranormal' on the basis of narrative and myth.

Linda

 

[Marduk]

Er, shall we just call it a day then?

unless you have anything credible to expound, thats not a bad idea

 

[carlitos]

Er, shall we just call it a day then?

I'm not sure. Threads like these can be instructive, as an exercise in where credulousness and lack of critical thinking skills can lead. And along the way I have learned more than I ever knew about crop circles. Same goes for the threads on God, UFOs, aliens, etc. People just like to believe in weird stuff.

Here is one question I would love to see answered, if you wouldn't mind.

How is your muse / trickster / collective consciousness any different from the other beliefs on display at the JREF?

More specifically - There is a guy who experienced what you did, and he claims "alien craft." Another bunch of folks "felt" the presence of God. Another group take paradolia to new levels and find ghosts, bigfoot and JFK's second shooter merely by analyzing a blurry picture. How is your thing different, and not just another extraordinary claim which cannot be proven?

 

[supergreen]

what I am saying is just because certain anomalies were found in certain crop cirlce formations does not mean that man is not capable of using the technologies theorised
to have caused the said anomalies ie: electromagnetic energy and/or sonic vibtration
therefore how can I assert that mankind did not cause ANY of the crop circles?

 

[Marduk]

what I am saying is just because certain anomalies were found in certain crop cirlce formations does not mean that man is not capable of using the technologies theorised
to have caused the said anomalies ie: electromagnetic energy and/or sonic vibtration
therefore how can I assert that mankind did not cause ANY of the crop circles?

yet the same anomalies have been reported from crop circles that did not use EM or sonics.

spooky eh

 

[Limbo]

I'm not sure. Threads like these can be instructive, as an exercise in where credulousness and lack of critical thinking skills can lead. And along the way I have learned more than I ever knew about crop circles. Same goes for the threads on God, UFOs, aliens, etc. People just like to believe in weird stuff.

Here is one question I would love to see answered, if you wouldn't mind.

How is your muse / trickster / collective consciousness any different from the other beliefs on display at the JREF?

/shrug

Jung would probably agree with everything I've said, more or less. He interpreted the UFO phenomenon (and religion) in terms of archetypes and attributed paranormal UFO effects (and miracles) to the psyche, that's all I'm doing with crop circles.

More specifically - There is a guy who experienced what you did, and he claims "alien craft." Another bunch of folks "felt" the presence of God. Another group take paradolia to new levels and find ghosts, bigfoot and JFK's second shooter merely by analyzing a blurry picture. How is your thing different, and not just another extraordinary claim which cannot be proven?

All of those things - aliens, God, ghosts - are archetypes in symbolic form. Not autonomous entities. They are patterns in our minds, but because psi is real archetypes can act in what we call everyday life. When the ego-self (our "I") interacts with archetypes, they take on a symbolic form, in a manner of speaking, and the result is an "alien" encounter or something. See where I'm coming from? They are only in our minds, but our minds are everywhere - consciousness is non-local. Mind is primary, not matter.

 

[supergreen]

So your position is all cropcircles are man made. I find that it is as ludicrous as someone saying they were all caused by aliens. The debunkers have failed to satisfy all the issues and questions I have concerning the circles. I remain open minded until a crop circle artist kindly creates an advanced mathematical complex geometrical crop circle with multiple layered lay in varying directions with all the physical findings considered abnormal in plant, soil, and em radio readings. They must do all this either filmed or with
impartial eyewitnesses from varying fields. They must do all this in a matter of hours.
The onus of proof I feel is on those who say they know 100% of crop circles are made
by humans. A side note on John Lundberg, of circlemakers and Doug and Dave....crop circles preceeded all of them.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

what I am saying is just because certain anomalies were found in certain crop cirlce formations does not mean that man is not capable of using the technologies theorised
to have caused the said anomalies ie: electromagnetic energy and/or sonic vibtration
therefore how can I assert that mankind did not cause ANY of the crop circles?

Before you worry about the cause of said "anomalies" you have to show that they're anomalous.

yet the same anomalies have been reported from crop circles that did not use EM or sonics.

Which means they're not anomalies. That's the point I've been trying to make.

If you observe every little minute characteristic of a crop circle, and don't compare those observations to something else (a control--like what does a stomped stalk look like) and then claim those observations are "anomalies", you're abusing the language.

It's the same sort of thing ghost hunters do when they record minute differences in a "haunted house" in measure like temperature or EMF readings or whatever. They never compare those readings to similar readings taken in a non-haunted house. They're meaningless.

 

[fls]

/shrug

So if you are uninterested in logical consistency and empirical grounding (which is fine - to each her/his own), why bother coming to a place where people generally are? Do you think you can convince us to give up a metaphysical position which has yielded such amazing and otherwise unobtainable results? And why bother using the products of this (to you) uninteresting metaphysical position?

Linda

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So your position is all cropcircles are man made. I find that it is as ludicrous as someone saying they were all caused by aliens. The debunkers have failed to satisfy all the issues and questions I have concerning the circles. I remain open minded until a crop circle artist kindly creates an advanced mathematical complex geometrical crop circle with multiple layered lay in varying directions with all the physical findings considered abnormal in plant, soil, and em radio readings. They must do all this either filmed or with
impartial eyewitnesses from varying fields. They must do all this in a matter of hours.

Please read the thread. We've already gone over the argument that humans can't do things that are difficult or time-consuming. Of course humans can and do every day.

Also, there is no evidence of the other stuff you're suggesting: novel mathematical or geometric concepts (this stuff is basically spirograph), layered weaving (crop circle techniques are far simpler than basket weaving), and your various so called physical "anomalies".

Again, before you worry about coming up with an explanation for something, you've got to show there's something in need of explaining. These "anomalies" aren't.

The onus of proof I feel is on those who say they know 100% of crop circles are made
by humans.

Nonsense. The burden of proof is on the person hypothesizing a highly unparsimonious explanation. If you would create entities, you definitely have the burden of proof.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So if you are uninterested in logical consistency and empirical grounding (which is fine - to each her/his own), why bother coming to a place where people generally are? Do you think you can convince us to give up a metaphysical position which has yielded such amazing and otherwise unobtainable results? And why bother using the products of this (to you) uninteresting metaphysical position?

Very good questions.

I maintain that Limbo's position is a faith-based position. He wants to pretend it's something like a scientific position.

That's why I earlier pointed out that his approach to logic is more like apologia (starting with a conclusion and trying to fix the evidence or arguments to support it) than it is to scientific reasoning (following the evidence to whatever conclusion it points to).

 

[fls]

So your position is all cropcircles are man made.

Psychic poop aside, there hasn't been evidence presented that excludes Man from the making of any particular crop circle. And we have independent confirmation of the existence of Man as well as information about its characteristics.

Let me point out that if alien activity was ordinary and common, and that both aliens and humans were in the habit of making crop circles, the discovery of a crop circle absent any of the information you asked for (an advanced mathematical complex geometrical crop circle with multiple layered lay in varying directions with all the physical findings considered abnormal in plant, soil, and em radio readings, filmed or with impartial eyewitnesses from varying fields, and in a matter of hours) wouldn't allow you to say the aliens did it, either.

Linda