Dr. Colin Ross's challenge

[Colin Ross]

I have begun this thread in the Million Dollar Challenge forum in response to Dr. Ross's statement that he only wants to talk about his challenge. It was split from this thread in the science forum if you wish to see the source of these comments. Please restrict your discussion here to the challenge itself.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

I encourage JREF form members to view these allegations against me with the same skepticism they would bring to a claim that the reality of the paranormal was being hidden by a conspiracy involving the JREF, the government and several other official bodies. What would be the standard of evidence required for such an allegation to be taken seriously? Clearly, affidavits by psychics would not constitute evidence. Just to correct a few inaccuracies in prior posts: dissociative identity disorder is still in the DSM and will be retained in DSM-V. I never worked for the VA. I never met George Bergen or any of his relatives and none of them were ever treated at the hospital I worked at. His relative committed suicide in 1986, a year after I completed my psychiatry residency - I left Canada in 1991 and first wrote in public about Satanic Ritual Abuse in my 1995 book of that name published by the University of Toronto Press. There is no mention of ritual abuse, cults or the CIA in any of my books or papers prior to 1995. I have 140 peer-reviewed papers and have published books with the University of Toronto Press, John Wiley & Sons and Haworth Press, all mainstream academic publishers. The picture painted of me is inaccurate in numerous details.
My updated JREF challenge protocol was submitted a year ago and I am still waiting for a response - it is available on my web page. Researchers at the University of Surrey have published a series of papers in which they take an EKG with a high-impedance electrode that is three feet away from the person - my challenge is based on the same scientific principle, except that the emission is brainwaves emitted through the eye. The challenge was accepted by the JREF because any form of extramission (energy emerging from the eyes) is disallowed by western science and is therefore "paranormal" - the intellectual point of my challenge is to demonstrate that, in this instance, the doctrine of western science is mistaken.

 

[Colin Ross]

I am not willing to discuss anything further in a JREF forum other than my challenge. The protocol and the rationale for it are on my web page. The basic idea is that the human body emits an electromagnetic field which is measured in an EKG or EEG. Researchers at the University of Surrey have published a series of papers in which they take an EKG with a high-impedance electrode that is three feet away from the person. Since brainwaves are emitted through the skull, they must also be emitted through the eye socket and be detectable with high-impedance electrodes that make no physical contact with the body. This is my scientifically testable hypothesis for which I have preliminary data in press. Since extramission (emission of any kind of energy through the eyes) is disallowed by western science, my JREF challenge was accepted as a claim of the "paranormal" - my hypothesis is that this doctrine is scientifically mistaken. The JREF rules state that once a challenge has been accepted, a subsequent demonstration of the scientific mechanisms by which it works does not invalidate the challenge. Once high-impedance non-contact electrodes are available, the electromagnetic signal emitted through the eye can be captured and used to trigger a tone with standard neurofeedback hardware and software. This is no more mystical than making squiggles appear on a computer screen by "shooting" an energy beam out from your heart - which is how an EKG works. I would be happy to discuss both the hypothesis and the details of the revised protocol, which I submitted to the JREF a year ago.

 

[Stray Cat]

Just from reading what is written here in this thread, I'd have to ask why is your challenge restricted to emitting through the eyes?
Surely if that's what you're claiming, then whatever signal you claim to be emitting will not be able to be detected except when in line of sight to the eyes and further more would stop if the eyes were closed. Which if I'm understanding your science, wouldn't happen. If the signal being emitted is being emitted through the whole body, then by the definition you quoted:

"Since extramission (emission of any kind of energy through the eyes) is disallowed by western science, my JREF challenge was accepted as a claim of the "paranormal"

it is not paranormal.

Just a thought... Perhaps I should go read the other thread.

 

[Cuddles]

it is not paranormal.

Indeed. However, while it's clear that Colin Ross is merely trying to con the JREF into giving him money by trying to word a claim in such a way that it appears paranormal. Unfortunately, it appears so far that he has succeeded. See Swift articles here and here.

The JREF appears to have accepted his claim at face value. While there have been perfectly valid objections to his attempts so far, these all focus on the fact that he's detecting something else, rather than addressing that the claim is simply not paranormal to start with. If the JREF isn't careful, they could easily fall victim to an extremely obvious con game.

 

[Baby Nemesis]

... This is my scientifically testable hypothesis for which I have preliminary data in press. Since extramission (emission of any kind of energy through the
eyes) is disallowed by western science, my JREF challenge was accepted as a claim of the "paranormal" - my hypothesis is that this doctrine is scientifically
mistaken. The JREF rules state that once a challenge has been accepted, a subsequent demonstration of the scientific mechanisms by which it works does
not invalidate the challenge. Once high-impedance non-contact electrodes are available, the electromagnetic signal emitted through the eye can be captured
and used to trigger a tone with standard neurofeedback hardware and software. This is no more mystical than making squiggles appear on a computer screen
by "shooting" an energy beam out from your heart - which is how an EKG works. ...

So basically what you're saying now is that you were out to trick the JREF into giving you the million? Or out to prove they and others classify some things as paranormal when there are normal scientific explanations for them?

 

[Colin Ross]

Response To Questions

The JREF rules and web page state that the JREF does not want to hear theories as to how the proposed paranormal demonstration works - the JREF only wants to discuss an actual demonstration and protocol. Early in my challenge process (2008) I sent the JREF papers by Winer, and quotations from Schrodinger and Toulmin stating that any form of extramission is disallowed by western science. According to the doctrine of intromission, as endorsed by Winer, no energy emission of any kind from the eyes is allowed. I submitted a challenge according to the rules and procedures of the JREF and it was accepted. The JREF was, as I see it, agreeing with and endorsing the opinion that my claim was an example of "the paranormal" because this is the position of western science on the matter. Intellectually, that is the whole point (of course I would also like to receive the $1 million). Western science and the JREF have defined extramission as paranormal - it follows from this viewpoint that the sense of being stared at cannot have any basis in physiological reality, which is also the position of orthodox western science. My effort is to demonstrate that at least one phenomenon classified as "paranormal" in fact can be reclassified as objective, real, demonstrable and scientific, namely extramission. The theory of intromission has been set up as the complete explanation of ocular physiology in an all-or-nothing fashion, with extramission completely disallowed.
Anyone is free to regard this as a trick or con if they wish. As I understand it, the JREF welcomes paranormal challenges and is willing to award the $1million if a challenge is successful. Why should I be faulted for submitting a challenge according to JREF rules and procedures? If, as I predict will happen, extramission becomes an accepted physiological reality after sufficient replication and peer review, this would seem a worthwhile scientific endeavor to me.
Extramission is one element of a general theory of human energy fields that I have developed - all based on electromagnetic emissions and interactions between organisms in the biosphere. For the JREF challenge I had to boil this down to a specific, detailed protocol, which I have done.
The reaction that my challenge is not really an example of "the paranormal" is exactly what I seek from the scientific community, namely that extramission should not be disallowed. That will hopefully become clear to everyone once the logic, arguments and data are marshalled, but it was not obvious prior to that effort. In fact extramission was actively disallowed as a matter of doctrine.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Of course radiation is "emitted" by the eyes. It's called heat. The whole body radiates similar "energy". Any body above the temperature of Absolute Zero will radiate energy into the surrounding space that is at a lower temperature.

An I missing something?

 

[Stray Cat]

Then your main obstacle as far as I understand it will be conclusively showing that the 'extramission' is being specifically restricted to being emitted from the eyes (as I mentioned earlier). Because if it was my money that was up for the taking, I would ensure that the claim being made (ie: that you can make and detect energy emitting from your eyes) is just that, and that the test protocol was designed in such a way as to prove that the emission was restricted only to the area you are claiming it is emitted from. Otherwise I could similarly claim that the sun shines out of my ass and prove it by showing an increase in temperature in between my butt cheeks.

Furthermore: I dont think that Western science would necessarily agree that just because it "disallowed" extramission, that Western science would say it was paranormal, nor that just because something was considered paranormal, that they would disallow it.

 

[Colin Ross]

Stray Cat - My claim didn't state that the energy was emitted exclusively from my eyes. It only stated that, "I claim I can send a beam of energy out of my eyes, capture it in a special set of goggles I have built, and then use the energy to make a tone play out of a speaker." This was accepted as a claim of the paranormal by the JREF, so it is paranormal by the JREF's definition. The protocol is designed so that the electrode is immediately in front of my eye in an electromagnetically insulated environment.
Gord - I'm talking about electromagnetic radiation in the 0-40Hz/1-50 microvolt range, not heat energy. The JREF rules did not require me to specify the type of energy and I was not asked to do so. In fact I was instructed not to submit any theories about how my challenge would work.
These are the JREF rules and definitions, not something I devised. My challenge has been accepted - there is no going back at this point, we can only go forward.

 

[Colin Ross]

Last Communication From the JREF To Colin Ross

I submitted a revised protocol to the JREF on February 13, 2009 - this protocol is posted on my web page. On Febraury 13, 2009 Alison Smith replied by e-mail:
"Thank you for your continued interest in the James Randi Educational Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge.
Since you withdrew your claim from the Challenge, you have now been moved to the end of the list - as the Challenge operates on a first-come, first-serve basis.
You will be contacted when we are ready to restart negotiation of your claim."

I disagreed that I had withdrawn my Challenge, as opposed to keeping it active but modifying the protocol, but in any case, I await a response from the JREF as to the details of my proposed protocol.
In the meantime I welcome any other questions about the protocol or the Challenge.

 

[Stray Cat]

Stray Cat - My claim didn't state that the energy was emitted exclusively from my eyes. It only stated that, "I claim I can send a beam of energy out of my eyes, capture it in a special set of goggles I have built, and then use the energy to make a tone play out of a speaker." This was accepted as a claim of the paranormal by the JREF, so it is paranormal by the JREF's definition. The protocol is designed so that the electrode is immediately in front of my eye in an electromagnetically insulated environment.

Cool, then as I already said, you only have to prove that the energy is not being emitted from anywhere except your eyes (otherwise your claim is invalid). That should be easy enough for you.
You do realise that the test protocols are developed to exclude cheating as a possible explanation. If it were found that the energy you were emitting was coming from your ears, I would consider that as cheating as it didn't constitute a part of your claim.

 

[Pantaz]

Do the goggles work only for you? What happens if another person uses them?

 

[Madalch]

Do the goggles work only for you? What happens if another person uses them?

The goggles, they do nothing.....

 

[Colin Ross]

Hi - I did not claim that the energy comes from only my eyes and I did not say anything about whether anyone else could do anything - I only said that I could do so. The JREF did not ask me any questions about the energy coming only from my eyes or about whether anyone else could do the same thing.
Asking what the goggles would do if someone else wore them is like asking what would happen if someone else was hooked up to the EKG machine.
I realize you are trying to devise arguments as to why my Challenge is invalid, and that's fine, but the JREF rules mean your arguments don't apply (as I see it).
Electromagnetic energy is emitted from (or associated with) every atom in the universe, so there is no reason it should be emitted only through the eyes - it comes out through the skull and therefore would not be blocked by the eyelids if eyes were closed - in fact, the amplitude of the apha waves goes up with eyes closed - this is called alpha blocking in the literature, and is evidence that the signal is physiologically active.

 

[wardenclyffe]

So, if you had lead coins over your eyes, the goggles would still work?

Ward

 

[Stray Cat]

I realize you are trying to devise arguments as to why my Challenge is invalid, and that's fine, but the JREF rules mean your arguments don't apply (as I see it).

You seem to be under the impression that it's all cut and dried though, when it isn't.
The JREF may have accepted your challenge, and you my have written up a protocol, but I'm guessing the JREF hasn't agreed to the protocol and in order for them to do so, they will need to make sure you are only showing what your are claiming and that no other influence can effect the outcome (because that would be considered cheating).
So, if your claim specifies the eyes (because that's what Western science disallows) and it is found that you are unfluencing the result of the test by emitting from your ears as well as your eyes, then your claim is not valid.
You need to alter your claim to be more specific in that you can emit from your whole body. In which case western science recognises the emmision and it ceases to be paranormal (even by your dishonest definition) and therefore not acceptable for inclusion in the challenge.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Colin Ross's challenge announcement:

Colin Ross has applied with the claim that he can cause a tone to sound by shooting energy out of his eyeballs.

He has provided both academic affidavits and media presence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142754

Hi - I did not claim that the energy comes from only my eyes and I did not say anything about whether anyone else could do anything - I only said that I could do so.

Do you claim to have control over this energy? What I mean is, does this energy always emit from your eyes, or do you have to tell it/force it to shoot out?

 

[Orphia Nay]

Colin Ross's challenge application & protocol on his website:

http://www.rossinst.com/paranormal_challenge.html

 

[Colin Ross]

Further Discussion of Colin Ross Challenge

I agree that my proposed protocol is subject to discussion and possible modification. In fact I initiated a modification of it. The protocol specifies that delta waves (1-4 Hz) will be measured - there is little or no muscle artifact in the delta range - muscle artifact is in higher frequency ranges. The electrode does not make physical contact with my body and there is no eye opening or closing, so muscle artifact seems to be ruled out at this point. My argument for the energy coming out of my eyes is the position of the electrode and the EM insulation of the right side of the goggles, plus the fact that the signal is physiologically active. Any energy emitted from my ears would have to pass through my skull to get to the electrode and the signal would be lost in the general brain field, I imagine.
I disagree that I have to prove the energy is emitted only through my eyes - I never made that claim. The type of energy is irrelevant to the Challenge by JREF rules in any case - I am discussing it post-acceptance of my Challenge.
Yes, if sufficient electromagnetic insulation was placed between my eye and the electrode, the signal woud be blocked.
I never said that I could control the energy or turn it on and off only that I could use it to make a tone sound out of a speaker. Obviously, no one can turn their brainwaves on and off by will, however, equally obviously one can change one's EEG with meditation, by going to sleep, by ingesting drugs etc. The vocabulary affects the perception of the claim - if I am described as claiming to "shoot out" energy through my eyes, this sounds more far-fetched and like I am claiming control - if the energy is "emitted" that sounds more scientific and is neutral concerning control. I never said I could "shoot out" anything.
The definition of the paranormal for the purpose of the Challenge is not made by me, so I should not be faulted for a dishonest definition - for the purpose of the Challenge, a claim is a claim of the paranormal if it is accepted as such by the JREF. These are the JREF rules and definitions, not mine.
Thanks for putting up the link.

 

[technoextreme]

Researchers at the University of Surrey have published a series of papers in which they take an EKG with a high-impedance electrode that is three feet away from the person.

Hey look woo that my background in electrical engineering can rip apart!!!!!! I'll be tactful first and ask that you show me the papers.

Indeed. However, while it's clear that Colin Ross is merely trying to con the JREF into giving him money by trying to word a claim in such a way that it appears paranormal. Unfortunately, it appears so far that he has succeeded. See Swift articles here and here.

The JREF appears to have accepted his claim at face value. While there have been perfectly valid objections to his attempts so far, these all focus on the fact that he's detecting something else, rather than addressing that the claim is simply not paranormal to start with. If the JREF isn't careful, they could easily fall victim to an extremely obvious con game.

Actually it is a paranormal claim. Being able to transmit Alpha,Beta,Gamma, or Trixie dixy doo waves from beyond your skin is woo. We have a hard enough time detecting the waves from electrodes. Its a claim that is extraordinary and one that JREF clearly has no expertise in with. You need a PHD biomedical engineer that deals with this stuff on a daily basis.

I agree that my proposed protocol is subject to discussion and possible modification. In fact I initiated a modification of it. The protocol specifies that delta waves (1-4 Hz) will be measured - there is little or no muscle artifact in the delta range - muscle artifact is in higher frequency ranges.

You have no clue how an EEG machine works do you?
EDIT:
God dam it. I'm right. Guess what frequency range the electrooculogram measures according to my textbook? 1-10 Hz.