KingMerv00
Penultimate Amazing
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Germany had the atomic bomb first
- Thread starter MaGZ
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My military experience was 1990 to 1996, with two more years in the ready reserves. Desert Storm? Restore Hope? I was there man, I was there!
I've been to Disneyland. Seriously, they put on a fireworks show at closing time, and the light is bright enough to light up the entire sky from Main Street! I haven't heard any complaints about radiation poisoning ... six-foot tall mice, but no radiation poisoning ...
I wish I could. I really wish I could.
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What Else Is there To Say
Yeah AFTER he told you he saw no proof in post #92 he pretty much called it a "notumentary"
realpaladin: "Watched it. No proof.It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.
MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge"?
And in post #97 he gives his opinion on your fantasy assumptions.
realpaladin: "I suspect most of the "knowledge" of MaGZ and Saggy is passed down to each other as a method to strengthen the group-feeling.
As I said (in this or another thread), they are just like the Goth-kids, the Emo-kids, the Vamp-kids etc. With the difference that when they grow up, they do not shed the fantasies of youth".
Yeah AFTER he told you he saw no proof in post #92 he pretty much called it a "notumentary"
realpaladin: "Watched it. No proof.It is one of those "What if these circumstances would mean this instead of that" type docudrama's.
MaGZ, really? This is how you garner knowledge"?
And in post #97 he gives his opinion on your fantasy assumptions.
realpaladin: "I suspect most of the "knowledge" of MaGZ and Saggy is passed down to each other as a method to strengthen the group-feeling.
As I said (in this or another thread), they are just like the Goth-kids, the Emo-kids, the Vamp-kids etc. With the difference that when they grow up, they do not shed the fantasies of youth".
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
What else is there to say?
Not much, Dude. Not much.
Not much, Dude. Not much.
autumn1971
Illuminator
Just to complete the coffin-lid, I don't think anyone has mentioned, among the huge number of things that the Nazis were missing in their A-bomb program, the process of seperating useful quantities of the proper isotopes would have required facilities the size of a large town. I think the allies might have noticed.
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
When I read The History Of The Atomic Bomb (and a few other sources) they all said that Germany had taken the wrong path towards the development of a bomb, and were never really in the running, especially after the sabotage of the heavy-water plant by the Norwegian operatives.
Along the same lines, I read a book about the Japanese effort to build a bomb themselves. One of the Japanese physicists did work with the elite group that included Fermi and the others, and it's fairly obvious they were familiar with the physics involved. However, by the time they were trying to do the research, their infrastructure was in shambles.
The book described a nasty radiation accident involving the highly volatile uranium hexaflouride gas that injured several researchers.
Along the same lines, I read a book about the Japanese effort to build a bomb themselves. One of the Japanese physicists did work with the elite group that included Fermi and the others, and it's fairly obvious they were familiar with the physics involved. However, by the time they were trying to do the research, their infrastructure was in shambles.
The book described a nasty radiation accident involving the highly volatile uranium hexaflouride gas that injured several researchers.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Closer than you know, Dude. Closer than you know...
As an old soldier, I know well that any big explosion tends to form a mushroom cloud. There is nothing particularly "nuclear" about such a cloud, except for its size.
Here's a little field test for Magz...100 grains of FFG Black Powder (6.4 grams) in a .77 Hakenbusch with no projectile.
Lights up pretty good, huh? Now picture a REAL high explosive charge going off, Like say 500lbs...Turning night to day with ordinary explosives is easy, no nukes required...
Lights up pretty good, huh? Now picture a REAL high explosive charge going off, Like say 500lbs...Turning night to day with ordinary explosives is easy, no nukes required...
Have you read the banner at the top of every page? I suggest you research the meaning of 'critical thinking', and come back when you've mastered it, or at least try practicising it here.
You need to examine the assumptions you are making. First, that the recollections of one woman's girlhood are accurate, and sufficient in the absence of any supporting evidence (when such evidence should be abundant), to establish that there was such an explosion. Second, that, even if her memory is accurate, a mushroom cloud indicates a nuclear explosion (I already asked you about that). Third, that, again, a bright light indicates a nuclear explosion.
How is it that you are so prepared to believe a TV programme which, if watched carefully, almost certainly is not stating as fact the things that happened, but couching them as speculation, but are not prepared to understand what you are told here?
That would be a start.
I'm Thinking... But Nothing's Happening!
Oh wow, look "atomic bombs" and they dropped them at an airshow in 2004!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Explosions.jpg
And look, the North Koreans are using child labor in their nuclear program. I'm sure these kids will have lots of mushroom cloud stories to tell when they're farting dust in distant future notumentaries
"Back in ought 4 me and my sister worked in Kim Jong il's atom smashing factory"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blowing_Smoke.jpg
Oh wow, look "atomic bombs" and they dropped them at an airshow in 2004!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Explosions.jpg
And look, the North Koreans are using child labor in their nuclear program. I'm sure these kids will have lots of mushroom cloud stories to tell when they're farting dust in distant future notumentaries
"Back in ought 4 me and my sister worked in Kim Jong il's atom smashing factory"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blowing_Smoke.jpg
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ingoa
Surfing on the relativistic brain wave
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re: "dirty bomb"
Where is the "dirty" supposed to originate? A few milligrams of Radium or Polonium would not do. You need a nuclear reactor to provide sufficient quantities to have enough waste to build a dirty bomb. This did not exist.
No enriched Uranium, no Plutonium (they even did not know it existed), no nuclear waste. This would be the fizzliest fizzle of all fizzled fizzles.
Even North Korea did better on their first try.
The only way I see this achieved is to transport a nuclear warhead from today through a Stargate to the past. But this would probably open to the secret Nazi base in Antartica or on the secret Nazi base on the moon.
My dear... There is a reason why "real" is part of the word "reality".
Where is the "dirty" supposed to originate? A few milligrams of Radium or Polonium would not do. You need a nuclear reactor to provide sufficient quantities to have enough waste to build a dirty bomb. This did not exist.
No enriched Uranium, no Plutonium (they even did not know it existed), no nuclear waste. This would be the fizzliest fizzle of all fizzled fizzles.
Even North Korea did better on their first try.
The only way I see this achieved is to transport a nuclear warhead from today through a Stargate to the past. But this would probably open to the secret Nazi base in Antartica or on the secret Nazi base on the moon.
My dear... There is a reason why "real" is part of the word "reality".
Actually, the concept of the "Dirty Bomb" originated in Medieval times (and perhaps before), when grenadiers would procure used, soiled chamber pots, fill them with black powder, light the fuse, and then hurl them at opposing troops. The intent was to inflict feces-covered pottery shards upon the enemy, but likely as not, the 'petard' (as the grenade was called back then) would blow up in the grenadier's hands.
A "Dirty Bomb" is one that employs infectious or poisonous substances along with the conventional explosive in such a way that the explosion spreads the substances over a wide area, with the intent of incapacitating troops rather than damaging buildings, bridges or other useful structures.
The following radioactive elements (and/or their radioactive isotopes) were discovered before WWII by ordinary chemical means: Uranium (in 1789), Thorium (1829), Cesium (1860), Polonium (1898), Radium (1898), Radon (1898), Actinium (1899), Protactinium (1913) and Francium (1939). Any of these could have been used by the Nazis to construct their 'Dirty' bomb (if they had one). Astatine and Neptunium were discovered in 1940, Plutonium in 1940 or 1941, Promethium in 1942 and Americium and Curium in 1944. Again, inclusion of these elements in a conventional bomb will make that bomb 'Dirty'.
A "Nuclear" or "Atomic" bomb, on the other hand, replaces the conventional explosive with a nuclear one. A "Dirty" nuclear bomb has (for example) a large quantity of radioactive cobalt in the casing, which disperses during the explosion and spreads radioactive fallout over a wide area.
The term "Dirty Bomb" is not limited to just radioactive materials. Chemical poisons can also be used. "Mustard Gas" in artillery shells were the "Dirty Bombs" of choice (also by the Germans) during the First World War.
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Will it make it "dirty" in any meaningful sense other than the purely technical, though?
For example, technically depleted uranium is radioactive (and for that matter, so, technically, is bismuth), but neither of them are radioactive enough to be any sort of a threat. Almost all naturally occuring radioisotopes are either extremely rare (rare enough that you can't extract enough to make a usefully "dirty" bomb -- e.g. there is probably less than an ounce of francium in total naturally occuring on Earth at any one time) or only slightly radioactive (as with bismuth -- the "dirty" effect is pointless).
paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
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Dirty bombs tend to be terror weapons...would the vast majority of soldiers or even generals care about this weapon that produces this small bomb crater with this radiowactha...radiosomething or other?
Not a very effective weapon at all. Boom! Kills five soldiers and contaminates a thousand soldiers...who will keep fighting until they get cancer in 2-3years.
That will depend on the quantities used.
Some Desert Storm veterans might be of a differing opinion on that one, but that's a topic for another thread.
Again, it depends upon the quantities used - and if they are available.
Note that I am not claiming that the Nazis actually had a dirty bomb that used radioactive materials. I am only saying that circumstantial evidence indicates that they could have had one, and that my claim is as far as I dare go in light of current available evidence.
To claim that the Nazis actually had a nuclear bomb at their disposal is far-fetched, to say the least. The words 'Delusion' and 'Fantasy' also come to mind when pondering this claim.
ktesibios
Worthless Aging Hippie
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The Allies were concerned that Germany might develop and use weapons aimed at spreading radioactive contamination or scatter radioactive materials on potential landing sites for the invasion of Europe. The USA established an operation to provide means of detecting the use of such a weapon.
it was codenamed "Peppermint" and headed by a Major Peterson. The measures taken included getting the Victoreen instrument company to develop portable Geiger counters, which were shipped to England via diplomatic pouch, and training officers in their use (they didn't make them get in the puch, though, they were just sent to England under cover assignments). In addition, all Army medical facilities were ordered to report if any patients showed certain symptoms (which were characterized as belonging to "an epidemic disease of unknown etiology") and all military photographic units were ordered to report any unexplained fogging of film. They didn't have any concrete plans for countering the use of radiological warfare, but they were determined not to be caught unawares.
You can read about Operation Peppermint in "The Secret History of the Atomic Bomb" by Anthony Cave Brown. Published in the late '70s, this book is a combination of the Smyth Report with a lot of material declassified between the end of the war and the publication of the book.
it was codenamed "Peppermint" and headed by a Major Peterson. The measures taken included getting the Victoreen instrument company to develop portable Geiger counters, which were shipped to England via diplomatic pouch, and training officers in their use (they didn't make them get in the puch, though, they were just sent to England under cover assignments). In addition, all Army medical facilities were ordered to report if any patients showed certain symptoms (which were characterized as belonging to "an epidemic disease of unknown etiology") and all military photographic units were ordered to report any unexplained fogging of film. They didn't have any concrete plans for countering the use of radiological warfare, but they were determined not to be caught unawares.
You can read about Operation Peppermint in "The Secret History of the Atomic Bomb" by Anthony Cave Brown. Published in the late '70s, this book is a combination of the Smyth Report with a lot of material declassified between the end of the war and the publication of the book.
I read a lot about Karlsch's claims this evening and what I have to say is that he basically folded under the scrutiny of German historians and physicists.
it comes to this at best: a hybrid weapon using high amounts of conventional explosives and some nuclear material. The claims in his 2008 book only amount to the possibility that the Ohrdruf tests of March 1945 were tests of shaped charge devices that were to be used to kickstart a reaction of low grade material.
The witness testimony about Rügen also doesn't talk about a mushroom cloud as MaGZ repeatedly claimed, it refers to a big explosion and a following dustcloud .
it comes to this at best: a hybrid weapon using high amounts of conventional explosives and some nuclear material. The claims in his 2008 book only amount to the possibility that the Ohrdruf tests of March 1945 were tests of shaped charge devices that were to be used to kickstart a reaction of low grade material.
The witness testimony about Rügen also doesn't talk about a mushroom cloud as MaGZ repeatedly claimed, it refers to a big explosion and a following dustcloud .
That's sort of my point.
(Shrug.) They're wrong.
And, again, that's my point.
The Nazis could not have used francium as a "dirty bomb" material because there wasn't and still isn't enough of it. There has never been enough of it in any one time/place even to weigh....
And that's what I'm questioning. I'm not sure they even could have.