Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
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Oh. I thought you had grasped the point but apparently not. The "Apostles' martyrdoms" in no way increases the likelihood of the truth of the resurrection.

The strength of a belief is not evidence to the truth of that belief.
 
DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
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And we've discussed this one. At least one was a forgery, but no matter. THere could be three million and all that demonstrate is that a group calling themselves "Christian" existed at the time. This group made certain claims, but none of the non-Christian sources can give any evidence to support the validity of Christianity itself.

DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
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And "Dianetics" has millions of manuscripts out there. I guess that makes Scientology more valid than Christianity?


DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
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So? Another point that has been raised, discussed and thouroughly trashed. Paul Jennings Hill by all accounts was a good Christian, even when he killed a man in cold blood.

DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
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We've been over this one as well. Trashed it completely too.

DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
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No evidence. None. There's a dark silent part of Christianity's early years (the 400 years between Paul and Constantine). Granted, part of this was because there were periodic progroms against Christians, but they were neither universal nor constant. The fact that most of Christianity's earliest believers were the uneducated (slaves, servants etc) might be the cause of this silence.

Now, I'm in a generous mood this morning. The sun is shining, the birds are shivering, I got a fresh cuppa coffee. So, I'll give you the premise that Christianity spread peacefully, for the moment. So what? They were a minority religion at the time. After Constantine converted the Empire, they were so NOT peaceful. It was commonplace for Christians to destroy anything that did not agree with their particular brand of bullsh...um...dogma. So, 400 years of peaceful conversion vs. 1600 years of violence against the unbelievers. Not a rousing advert for your side there DOC.

DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
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This has been so sound destroyed, that I'm not even going to make a snarky comment about it.


D'oh!
 
Lothian said:
Doc has edited a post to give us Winnie the Pooh 42.

xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | 22 | xx | xx | xx | xx | 27 | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
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Bingo!

Row 4: 7, 17, 26, 37, 42.
 
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BuddyChrist.jpg

w00t!​
 
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DOC said:
1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
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There is more evidence for Joseph Smith and mormonism. And if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for Mormonism. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
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There are many many copies of scientology and it has been translated into multiple multiple languages. And they do not contradict each other. if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for Scientology. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
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He also rewrote the bible to remove any of the magical elements from it. He even went so far to liken the bible as a dung heap. if you use Jefferson's quote about Jesus, you must also use his quote on the bible. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
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Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Islam, Bhuddism,... if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for all other religions. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
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This is true, but so did a lot of other apocalyptic cults. What made christianity different was that it was adopted by St. Constantine, who DID spread it by the sword. Which is just like many religions. SO you are right, this isn't circular reasoning. It is just false logic.

DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaeological evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
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And he was also found to make up stories, like the census claims. if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept the fact that he was also known to make stuff up. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.


Well, DOC you are right. All your arguments AREN'T circular reasoning. Just a large percentage of them. One of them is just simply false.
 
DOC said:
I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
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Your statements contradict each other.

NO ONE here is using prove in the mathematical sense. We are using it to mean " evidence". And we mean that martyrdom doesn't represent evidence for truth. It is (as we have said over and over) evidence of belief. not truth.


So, now that you know this, any future use of claims to the contrary will constitute a lie.
 
Akhenaten said:
Which reminds me. Where is six7s?
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Avoiding this thread for sake of his blood pressure?
Engaging in that off-line thing called "a life"?
Paragliding in the Andes?

ETA: His profile says that the last time he was on was the 9th. I'm now adding "Hiking the Appalachian Trail ;)" as an option.
 
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They both can't be right -- The law of Non Contradiction.

ETA: And yes I know one doesn't have to be right, I was just making a point.
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6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
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Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
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Could it be? Is he actually capable of...learning?


I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
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Oops, no. Nope. Non. Nein. Uh-uh. :nope:
 
Personally, I think the devil made him do it. That one line was just so out of place with the rest of the thread.

I had to read it a few times to confirm that he'd actually said something that was true.

Just a weird anomaly, I guess.
 
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